Okay, this is not the bestest Buffy episode, and in fact is only redeemed by that excellent vampire Sunday and her dumbass pals.  (Wow, the writers remembered that the show is about Buffy the VAMPIRE killer.)  They seem to have forgotten that Buffy got that beefy 1800 on her SATs and drop her right back in student slacker status. 

We mostly get intro material and a little teaser about the Initiative and a lot of people being Mean to Buffy.  The Nerve.   The scene with Buffy and Xander is nice in a lame way.  And, what was Anya doing all that time while Xander was dancing in the stripper bar and doing dishes?

I did have a moment of solidarity with Buffy.  One of my college roomates had a Pure Prairie League record (yes, remember them) that she played night and day.  At least it was better than Cher.  I have to say college hasn't changed much since 1971, except for the techno junk.

There are also a couple of interesting lines:

Buffy:  Can't wait till mom gets the bill for these books, I hope it's a funny aneurysm.

That's almost like step on a crack and break your mother's back.  If Buffy says stuff, does that make it come true?  Then there's:

Giles: I'm not supposed to have a private life?
Buffy: No!  (In a whiny voice.) 'Cause you're very, very old, and it's gross.

I hope somebody can come up with some real deep mystical meaning in this episode.

They seem to have forgotten that Buffy got that beefy 1800 on her SATs and drop her right back in student slacker status.
That would be quite impressive, given that the SATs only went up to 1600 when Buffy took them.

In all seriousness, though, I think Buffy could definitely be the type (like Oz) who tests well, but doesn't apply themselves in school, hence being a slacker. Buffy definitely doesn't think of herself as smart (as early as season 1, she's referring to herself as mentally challenged), and I think she underestimates herself quite a bit. Plus, she tends to see school as something of a lost cause anyway - she knows her only future is as the Slayer, so what good is a college education going to do her?

I haven't watched this ep, well, season four in general in quite awhile.  But I do remember thinking that Buffy and Xander were going to have some kind of extra closeness or something--not necessarily romantic, but something...

Funny about Giles' "private life" comment, considering it was pretty non existent after this season.  Or wait--when did Olivia leave?  Was it mid season, or...?  I wish we'd gotten more of  story on those two.

I'm pretty sure Joss knew he was going to give Joyce the axe in s4--something about her not being available to be around much that season, and him asking her to stick around so that he could kill her later or something

But yeah, I'm pretty sure there's no deep, mystical meaning in this ep--just some backstory and some foreshadowing.  I will say that I thought the Sunday staking was pretty cool, and I enjoyed the stake twirl at the end.

And hey, is Riley in this ep?  I just remember thinking "lame."  And Parker got an "eww."  Yep, that sums it up :p

Yes, Joss knew Joyce was going to die next season. The actress mentioned that she was out of the country for a lot of season 4 and Joss wanted to make sure she'd come back the next year, to kill her! 

I thought Willow was very realistic in this ep, being so wrapped up in the new adventure of school that she neglected noticing her best friend. I dislike how people try to split Willow into the perfect, kindest friend and the power-hungry witch. As a good character, Willow did have flaws that showed up not connected to being evil. Looking back, I was surprised at how early Giles was saying that he thought Buffy didn't need him. i thought that question came up later and hit its critical point early season 5.

Sunday was a pretty great villain, and its realistic that a freshman would feel overwhelmed at college and that they might have a sport or a hobby and find someone at college who knows as much about it as they do, and Buffy was clinging to Slaying being her thing before Sunday showed up.

I think Buffy could definitely be the type (like Oz) who tests well, but doesn't apply themselves in school, hence being a slacker. - which might work out until you get to the trigometry questions. 

Riley is in this episode.  Buffy drops some books on his head, proving that your first reaction is your best reaction.  Too bad she didn't stick with that. 

Willow pretty much irked me with the oh my boyfriend's in the band crap and all that sucking up to Riley about how fascinating Dr. Walsh is.  This is sort of the last season where I can stand her. 

Mentioning the "funny aneurism" comment - is Buffy psychic?  She seems always to be in tune to what's going on, especially evil, far in advance of everybody else. 

Riley is in this episode. Buffy drops some books on his head, proving that your first reaction is your best reaction. Too bad she didn't stick with that.

Seems to be a theme with Buffy though.  She didn't like Angel at first either. 

We have proof that Buffy's instincts are all wrong!  She didn't like Angel at first, and he cared about her and tried to do good. She didn't like Riley at first, and he loved her and wanted to do the right thing and help people by capturing demons. She liked Parker right away and cozied up to him without any doubts, and he was a piece of dirt who manipulated her just so he could get into her pants once and immediately move on to another girl.
I don't think I need to mention that the one she resisted the most, Spike, was the one who cared the most deeply for in a real, messy love she ?may have returned.

I don't really like Olivia, and thought she was kind of pointless. They could have shown Giles being in a very different place than he was when he had a job and a purpose without a totally new character without any meaning or background. Maybe she could have walked in on him singing in clothes that would better fit a younger man, idk. But Olivia still didn't really help him seem to feel lost and without direction to the audience, so I guess they just wanted to show he'd moved on from Jenny and we could completely forget about Angel because now he has his own series.

Pat and Maryperk - really like your theory re the best Buffyboyfriends are the ones she hates.  I think we can add Owen (she really liked him, but he had a death wish), Ford (she really liked him and he kidnapped her and gave her to Spike to be killed), Scott (she really blah blah and he dumped her, oh and turned gay), Ben, she really liked and he tried to kill her sister.  Xander - she liked him just as a friend and turned him down so it wasn't necessary for him to mess her up. 

Olivia - I liked Olivia, but they didn't do anything much with her.  The writers of Hush said she served a useful part there (along with Tara) in being not as up on all the Sunnydale evil and so less able to protect herself.  Too bad that they sent her along.  She at least deserved a gruesome death, preferably that Giles could feel guilty about.

One thing to remember is that when an only child leaves home for the first time, it is not only the children that have to learn to live alone and away from the comfort and protection of home, it is the parents that also have to move on to a different life, I think that Olivia helped to show that Giles also had to learn how to be a guide for Buffy in this new stage of their lives.  Both parental figures are shown making Buffy stand on her own - sad however for Joyce and Buffy,  that she will soon be the one that can never come back.  Changes for all of them, but especially for Buffy, past loves will make way for new one in Riley and and as states in earlier post, Giles also is making a place for a new woman with Olivia. 

Have to love the big constrast between the early episode Buffy, all lost and insecure,  and the last scene with Giles coming to her rescue and making the choice to help her - great forshadow of things to come -

Watching this episode again I tried to see how many things from the next season were foreshadowed – Joss Whedon, like in his other season openers hints at some things that will be part of the new season. Here are some of the items that I noticed – foreshadows or things that were reverted back to by writers in future episodes.

Not in any particular order –

1. Buffy speaks the same theme of "bad friends" that Willow uses in "Something Blue" and her break up with Oz.
2. Buffy wears a lot of pink – symbol of infant girl and young girls
3. Buffy wears a dress with fruit, cherry designs, in the hall scene that is repeated in the season finale in "Restless."
4. Joyce death
5. Blonde mannequin in the Vampire Lair which at first glance looks like Spike – a blond mannequin shows up again in Spike’s Buffy altar.
6. Sunday name, off course follows Buffy’s theme of putting to rest her fears of college and new challenges.
7. Angel appearance – symbol of moving on to new love with Riley
8. The vamp from Initiative capture I think if the same one that is with Spike when he escapes.
9. Buffy getting back her confidence with stake twirl
10. Giles and his theme of doing the right thing and pushing Buffy to take charge of her life.
11. The importance of Buffy’s support from her friends

Some reason pw wasn't working so had to wait for new pw so can't sign on for now.  Anyway...

See that's something I agree with.  Buffy didn't like Angel at first.  Yet, all of a sudden she does?  Even with Spike she hates, but her progression towards tolerating/liking/then eventual loving Spike was actually believable.  Yes, I know the abusiveness aside they were both progressing towards something more.  Kind of why I was oh so disappointed with the end of the series.

I love the in depth breakdown of such a 'eh' episode.  I can totally see the foreshadowing, but did the writers realize they were?  Probably, and probably not.

I want to take it back even further.  I know most don't even consider the movie as part of this Buffy verse, but you do have to take a gander at the outline of the story.  Yeah, Joss took and embelished what he wanted for the series.  Totally get that even though I'm not a Joss loving fan.  Point?  Yeah, so getting to that, lol.

Buffy didn't like Pike either until the mid middle to end of the movie did she start to have some feeling for him.  My opinion of Pike - Joss took Pike's bad boy image and transformed his next bad boy image vampire and wah lah SPIKE!

I think if you dig deep on quite a few episodes you see tons of foreshadowing.  Whether the writers realize this or not, who knows.  Like Spike's Speech to Buffy and Angel.  Can be interpretted for Bangel, but can totally be taken in context to Spuffy.  Foreshadowing...I should say so.  But, at the time I had the feeling this was the clincher to the Buffy and Angel saga.  Foreshadowing Angel leaving Buffy.  But then again we all knew then Angel the Series was due so...

Again I find it rather unsettling that Joss brings out these guys she hates and has his heart set on making them the 'best' boyfriend. Hard to explain what I'm getting at but that led me to think what is it he is really trying to say?  That the guys you hate are the one's you tend to go after?  Maybe in some cases but not always.  Have to think some more on that really deep hidden meaning, lol.

Uh, actually for your number 7 I think this put a damper on Buffy or Angel moving on.  Joss did this purposely to constantly make them conflicted and to never really move on.  Hence the 'let me bask' kiss or I will remember you, but let me rape your mind of what we could have had by turning back time.

But something to ponder on.  I think when it comes down to writing Buffy and agreeing what would rap up  the scenes for the episode they all had Buffy in this category - As a Slayer she was instinctual for fighting off evil and following her calling but overall she hated it and had too many issues.  Whether they were from what happened from her parents splitting or being put in the Mental ward - her instincts were completely off!  Bad writing has Buffy crampy in the movies - may or may not be a Joss thing - but she's not like this in the series.  She doesn't even know Angel is one ffs!  Not until they kiss.  Then everything just went downhill from there.  She was emotionally unstable before she even got to Sunnydale.  So yeah - I think what happened in her life thus far had a major impact on who she was as a teenage girl and a Slayer.  An impact so deep it effected her choices.  Just a deeper look at this topic and on the foreshadowing.  I'm done, lol.

*If I'm all over the place sorry I'm so tired and the rain isn't helping either lol*

[quote]Buffy didn't like Angel at first.  Yet, all of a sudden she does?  Even with Spike she hates, but her progression towards tolerating/liking/then eventual loving Spike was actually believable.[/quote]

I think there's a big difference between Buffy's initial dislike of Angel and Buffy's initial dislike of Spike. With Angel, it's pretty obvious that it's a "lady doth protest too much" kind of dislike - you know, the classic trope of girl meets guy, they get off on the wrong foot, but end up totally in love. To be honest, I'd say they hit it a little too hard, to the point where I just roll my eyes at Buffy's indignance in "Welcome to the Hellmouth," when she tells Giles, "I really didn't like him [Angel]." Of course you didn't, hon. You keep telling yourself that.

Same thing with Riley, I think, except in that case, it's Riley who protests too much (really? She's "peculiar"?). But again, the whole thing is played as somewhat coy, even though it's painfully obvious they're going to get together, no matter what they're saying about each other.

But Spike is on a completely different level. That's not just token dislike to play into a trope - they're actually enemies trying to kill each other (which is why it took three seasons to work up to liking each other, as opposed to a handful of episodes, the way it did with Angel and Riley). There's definitely some coyness (the flirty arguing in season 4) and sexual tension building up, but I don't think it's ever obvious that they're going to get together, until it actually happens, whereas Angel and Riley may as well have worn flashing neon signs that said "I'm the love interest."

I think that in the context of the season theme of leaving childhood behind and moving on to the next phase of "growing up" - Buffy seeing Angel/Angelus woks for the intro of Riley as her new love interest and symbol of needing to let go of her attachment to Angel/Angelus. But as you state, the "conflict theme" is always part of the larger Buffy arc. IMO, I do think that she never really gets past her Angel/Angelus trauma.

The Riley romance is treatment is layered with contradictions. Buffy tells Riley that that there has never been anyone that she has opened up herself and presumably her heart so completely - yet she closes herself off from him. Throughout their entire romance Buffy is shown as loving him over and over - she has no doubts of her love for him. Yet, I knew from the very start that there were fundamental problems that would break them apart - I would have been totally surprised if Riley-Buffy had been a permanent relationship.

With Spike, her history with Angel/Angelus is huge in how she conceptualizes Spike – but again the treatment of Buffy-Spike is entangled with so many contradictions. Buffy goes from I utterly loath Spike to I trust him with my life and the life of the mother and sister. It all makes for great drama, but for very strange "episode to episode" character treatments.

One of the reasons that I disliked so very much the Buffy-Angel encounter from the finale is that is again brings back all the conflict and history of the early season. This scene cast a shadow (for me) to all the growth and character development for Buffy. If Joss had just left off with that "bask" light comedy, I would have hated it but understood the tribute of Buffy-Angel history. The ending it all off with the "I still think about it" however detracted so very much from the powerful arc of growth & self-Discovery of season 6 and season 7.

Buffy-Angel/Angelus conflict and early history, why bring in back in the series finale of all things – what did it really add?

No. 7 of my list is about how I see it in the context of this episode and the new season.

　

　

　

　

　

But Spike is on a completely different level. That's not just token dislike to play into a trope - they're actually enemies trying to kill each other (which is why it took three seasons to work up to liking each other, as opposed to a handful of episodes, the way it did with Angel and Riley). There's definitely some coyness (the flirty arguing in season 4) and sexual tension building up, but I don't think it's ever obvious that they're going to get together, until it actually happens, whereas Angel and Riley may as well have worn flashing neon signs that said "I'm the love interest."

This is why the ending scene with Spike's erotic Buffy dreamscape and his desparation about any potential love for Buffy was so splendid - and JM was perfect with his performance in that scene.

I think what I was really trying to say is that even with the movie Buffy (her eventual boyfriends), she had a major dislike for them.  I included Spike in this category because she did hate him, and yes, it took a long time for it to become eventual love.  To me that was believable rather than what happened between Angel and eventually Riley.  She didn't like Riley or Angel.  This applies to the movie as well - she didn't like Pike at first either.  This was the theme I was leaning towards.  These potential 'good' boyfriends were guys she didn't like at first then all of a sudden she does.  She liked Parker and well we know how that ended.  So her instincts are way off when it comes to looking for a potential boyfriend.  I just think that these boyfriends, and I agree with you nmcil, might have worn flashing neon signs that said "I'm the love interest."  But, I was noticing the same as guest, Mary, and spike_tart were noticing.  All these supposed good guys for Buffy were guys she didn't like.  I placed Spike in this same category but at a lesser degree.  It didn't happen in the same way.  She hated Spike and I think it was mostly due to his soulless vampirism and his cockiness towards her.  You can still see an unbelievable attraction in the body language and some of the innuendos they fling back and forth at each other.  It's almost like that guy and girl in school early on who hated each other but secretly had a thing for each other vibe.  Well, I saw it.  It was that eventual progression I was speaking of.  Yet I still place Spike in the same category, but a lesser degree - why?  Like I said the classic case of boy/girl really shows hatred for each other, and yet, somehow, it progresses into love.  This was believable where as Angel she hates then it's like a second later it's like oh yeah I am so in love with him - then again it's a tv show.  Same with Riley.  It wasn't a natural progression from hate/dislike to actual feelings, but then again she was young with Angel, and still rather immaturish with Riley - even after the Parker usage. 

Now that screams foreshadowing of even Riley then to what she would do in her future relationships.  How she isn't completely in love or uses them for just the sake of having a relationship.  God she showed more emotions towards the Parker diabolical than her relationship with Riley.  She had some major issues when it came to any kind of romantic relationship and this is why I said that anything that happened before had a major impact on her decision making.  Being placed in the mental ward and her parents splitting.  It affected her.  Even in the movie she changed.  She was a shallow valley girl - then she became the Slayer.  Her attitude changes even her perceptions on romantic interests - Pike.  Then we viewers come to Sunnydale and she is still changed from her shallow valley girl, but more with the hiding and feeling she is wrong.  I got this feeling that she felt she was wrong throughout the whole show.  That there was something always wrong with her.  Her parents really did a number on her (or in this case what Joss was aiming for). 

With that said I felt her boyfriends and even decisions with her friends were off at times. 

I agree with that nmcil but I still see it on the same degree of all of Buffy's boyfriends.  They were enemies, yes, but I still feel that Angel should still have been seen this way regardless of his cursed soul or not.  He is still a vampire, but had a curse.  Actually it is token dislike.  They were still attracted and Buffy was rather intrigued by him during there meeting.  Body language and innuendos aside then I would believe they were on a different level.  Not what I saw.  So I agree to disagree here cuz I truly believe in that she had problems in her choices with the right 'love interest'.  I still think all the episodes were symbolic to what was to come. 

Honestly?  Being that I am so analytical (lol) I knew Angel wasn't going to work out and knew he would eventually leave.  You can see it just by the darkness of the show - that none of them would have what they truly wanted.  It was what the producer wanted, and that's probably why I missed a lot of Season 3, and picked it up again when Spike/JM came back.  I wasn't rushing to the tv back then like I was when Season 5, even 6, and season 7. 

Back to spikez_tart question though.  I thought a lot of the episodes foreshadowed a lot of what was to come or certain episodes were 'fillers' to the climax episode.  Ta! 

Could Buffy have had any permanent relationship? The show had a lot of stories and major plots that didn't depend on Buffy's boyfriends, but I don't think the writers would ever have let her be in a stable, happy relationship, because Buffy as the main character needs to be alone. Even when she was with Riley, the small problems and issues on both sides were obvious. A good story needs conflict, and the conflict Buffy feels is really the main focus, not the battles against demons. And to keep Buffy in conflcit, she can't have a relationship she trusts in and relies on and can find a bit of peace from.

Okay, this is not the bestest Buffy episode, and in fact is only redeemed by that excellent vampire Sunday and her dumbass pals. 

Personally, the second Xander appeared on screen I was as happy and grateful as Buffy was. The episode became more enjoyable after he showed up. I still remember our squeals -my sis and I- heh (My sister had told me that it will take episodes for Xander to show up again because he's on his roadtrip, so glad she was wrong. Then again she took her info from a fanfic.)

The scene with Buffy and Xander is nice in a lame way.

The episode reminds me of Empty Places/Touched. Buffy is driven to lose confident in herself, feels so lonely and unsure about her abilities, then comes a guy who worships the ground she walks on with his confident-boost speech and she's a hero again. Except this episode feels more realistic than Empty Places, at least I can understand Giles moving on and Willow being busy gushing over college, and I don't feel like hating them.

And, what was Anya doing all that time while Xander was dancing in the stripper bar and doing dishes?

Busy running away... what I don't get is where did she get the money to buy a car and an apartment? And where's her car now?

Buffy:  Can't wait till mom gets the bill for these books, I hope it's a funny aneurysm.

Poor Joyce. And to think, once your child hits 18, s/he is gonna be responsible for themselves.
 

I haven't watched this ep, well, season four in general in quite awhile.

Me, too. And to be honest, I miss it the most. I forgot some episodes in it like the one with Giles turning into a demon. It'll be fun to revisit it and discover new stuff. And since I'm a huge Core Four fan, it'll be a treat for me.

Or wait--when did Olivia leave?

Last time she appeared was in Hush. She probably couldn't take Giles' lifestyle, and decided to head back home.

I thought Willow was very realistic in this ep, being so wrapped up in the new adventure of school that she neglected noticing her best friend. I dislike how people try to split Willow into the perfect, kindest friend and the power-hungry witch. As a good character, Willow did have flaws that showed up not connected to being evil. Looking back, I was surprised at how early Giles was saying that he thought Buffy didn't need him. i thought that question came up later and hit its critical point early season 5.

S4 is my favorite Willow season. She's not Buffy's groupie anymore and she's not too arrogant yet.

Have to love the big constrast between the early episode Buffy, all lost and insecure,  and the last scene with Giles coming to her rescue and making the choice to help her - great forshadow of things to come -

That's interesting. S6/S7 foreshadow.

I loved Willow in this episode - and I also like her treatment in first encounters with Tara and college life in the early season episodes.  The treatment of Giles and Joyce was also interesting as foreshadow - Giles seems to take the precedence in this episode for "parental figure" over Joyce particularly with the Buffy room scene.  In reality, Joyce and Buffy would have gotten together to talk about what her first days at college were like- it would be the natural thing for a mother and daughter to do.