I may be out of order here by jumping to the end of the season, but I watched this episode again last night and one thing I hadn't really paid much attention to before jumped out at me and demanded to be addressed. Both when he encounters Angel in the alley and when he's talking to Buffy after Angel has left, Riley casually assumes that Buffy slept with Angel while she was in LA.

When she realises this, Buffy just gently asks Riley, "Have I ever given you any reason to feel that you can't trust me?"

Admittedly she doesn't know what Riley said to Angel, but shouldn't this casual display of distrust have made her both angry and upset? Why on Earth didn't she dump him there and then as IMHO she should have?

I remember that scene. She's got tears in her eyes as she asks him why he hasn't trusted her.  Maybe he was just so insecure about her feelings for Angel he assumed she would? Or, he did think Angel was evil, and since he knew that was how it happened last time... Not sure why he thought Angel was evil, other than he was fighting the soldiers when he first found him.  I'm not sure that she and Riley are deep enough into the relationship for her to get angry about it. Or, it's just more proof of Riley's insecurity where she's concerned and why he's not the right guy for her. :)

Buffy and Riley are very deep into their relationship by this point - in fact he has just given up his life's love and career with the Initiative for her and Buffy will soon give him her "I have never opened up with anyone before, like I have you" (paraphrase) 

This is also the start of their final breakup - Riley could never emotionally accept her predominant position, he wants to and he thinks that he can, but deep down he cannot accept the his role as "second string." 

Someone in the "Something Blue" discussion mentions how Spike seems OOC with his old fashioned ideas of Buffy working and his being her protector, but IMO, that is a reflection of Riley's old fashion and traditional perspectives.   While this would also reflect Spike/William, the old fashion relationship terms used by Riley and Parker it seems to me are more about Riley than any other character. 

I have been watching the entire season again and was struck with the comments in the Special Features about many fans not being at all receptive to this relationship - but the writers feel that Buffy needs very much to have this relationship.  It is all however somewhat confusing - they clearly present Buffy as being very much in love with him, and yet there are some many clues and circumstances that show how this relationship will never work.

Buffy also tells Angel "put yourself in his place" (paraphrase) - so she knows how vulnerable he is and we also have those harsh words from Graham about Riley's mission is now being the Slayer's boy friend and true love and how Riley is now essentially a "nobody," a man that has let go of some very important part of his life.  No sure which episode this takes place in, I think it is OFMH.

I don't think Buffy would be angry over this, she knows that the world view has been shattered, that a fundamental part of his self identity via Maggie Walsh and the Initiative has been lost. 

I don't think Buffy ever "dumps" anyone in the series - look how much she had to go through before she let's go of her Parker Need.  Letting go of her Mr. Joe Normal is no something that she will let go of easily.  She is totally invested in her relationship with Riley/JoeNormal - if it can't work with him, how can she ever find a human that she can share her life with.  And while she can share her work with Riley, she also has her problems with having a non-super strong fighter for a lover. 

Upon reflection I think the exchange demonstrates both of their insecurities. Riley is understandably jealous when Angel turns up, especially after Xander told him Buffy had had a sexual relationship with him in the past. I agree he assumes Angel is evil as he is fighting the soldiers, not realising that if he truly was evil the soldiers wouldn't just be battered and bruised, they'd be very messily dead. As Riley only knows one way for Angel to turn evil... and must be already unhappily aware that Buffy doesn't love him as much as he loves her... I suppose it's an easy conclusion to jump to as he was uncertain of his place in her affections. I still think Buffy should have been more upset/offended by his casual assumption though... (I certainly would have been!) but perhaps she was disarmed by him saying, "Because I'm so in love with you I can't think straight." (Incidentally an example when it would have been perfect timing for her to return the sentiment, but her non-committal, "Tell me about it." has to be anything but reassuring for him.)

Buffy, on the other hand is clearly fond of Riley, but not deeply in love with him. One interesting fact I picked up on is that Buffy never actually says 'I love you' to Riley in the entire relationship. We know she's uncomfortable expressing her emotions, but when one is truly in love (as she was with Angel, however 'Schoolgirly' in nature the love was), one has no trouble saying the words. She is however still fixated upon the 'normal life with a normal man' Angel insisted she should have despite her confession 'I like my evil like I like my men...evil' and 'clings' to the relationship with Riley long after it should have been clear to her that it had no future.

As for Buffy not dumping anyone... didn't she have to dump Owen? True they'd only been on the one disastrous Bronze/morgue date, but I'm sure I remember her being the one to put a stop to that relationship when she realised his reaction to it would inevitably put him in harms way - a situation she surely should have remembered when considering dating 'normal' again. I think the writers decided they had to give Buffy the opportunity to date an 'ordinary' guy at college (although Riley wasn't exactly ordinary, what with the whole government demon hunting group and being boosted with drugs) but it had to end badly as there was no way her extraordinary life would fit into an ordinary relationship, and no way an ordinary guy would be able to cope!

Buffy did technically dump Angel the first time, funnily enough, I think it was after Spike's speech in "Lover's Walk."  She decided it would be best to end things, and that she won't be coming around anymore.  I still don't know what happened, but a few episodes or so after that, they're back to being all lovey dovey, until he breaks up with her in the sewers during "The Prom," and she has a fit over it.  Apparently it's okay for her to dump him, but not the other way around.

Yeah, nmcil, after I wrote that, I remembered what Riley had given up for her. I guess I was looking at it more from Buffy's perspective and she didn't seem as enamored as he was. She was invested in the relationship, because that's how Buffy is - she tries hard; but I don't think she was so madly in love with Riley.  She had her feelings for Angel (however teenagerish they may have been) to compare with, and I'm sure the way she felt about Riley would have suffered in the comparison.

yet there are some many clues and circumstances that show how this relationship will never work.  Heh heh, the writers knew in their heart of hearts that he was not the "long haul guy." 

she didn't seem as enamored as he was - I didn't think so either, but it's hard to tell.  Post-Angel debacle she becomes more and more secretive about her feelings.

Spike seems OOC with his old fashioned ideas of Buffy working and his being her protector, but IMO, that is a reflection of Riley's old fashion and traditional perspectives. - Since they play it for laughs, it could be a back hand at Riley.

Buffy has dumped Angel, Owen and Spike.

I agree--if that had been me, and my bf accused me of cheating, I would have went off (on him).  No tears, but legitimate indignation.  And probably suspicion, since when a person usually accuses you of cheating, it means they were cheating themselves.

Riley knows that the Initiative will hunt and track any beings room temperature and below.  Did he expect his soldier buddies to what, talk to Angel in a calm and peaceful manner when they noticed he was one of the undead?  Dur.  Of course he was fighting them--a fight they started.

And let's face it---Buffy only threw herself into a relationship with Riley after she made out big time with Spike.  It was as if she were trying to purge herself from the [more than likely pleasant] memories of being with/on him.  And then it was all--"Look!  Joe Normal!  He's boring as hell, but safe and seemingly interested in me!  And Willow approves.  Huzzah!"  All pretty dumb reasons to be in a relationship with someone, and totally unfair to the other person.

I have to go with all the "old fashion" relationship references as a reflection on Riley and the safe, normal relationship that he represents for Buffy, and it could also be commentary on how Riley's world view makes him a perfect candidate for membership in the Initiative. 

The one thing that I always feel when I see them together being romantic is that for some reason, it always comes across on her side as not real.  It's like Buffy has convinced herself that she loves him and has to be with him because that is the "good and right" kind of man that she should have.  Plus, getting over all the hurt and evil that Angel/Angelus caused, she just wants to get past all that and move on to a more normal life partner.    

The Riley relationship gave her something that felt very safe and comforting (in general) in her life. Like an animated teddy bear. The people she cared about approved, he treated her nice, she felt nice with him, etc, etc.......to the point that it was probably how she assumed an adult relationship should be. I'm sure she remembers the good times between her parents as settled and comfortable, being too young or not born, yet, for the time they were really in love.... If something drastic hadn't happened in season 5, she never would have let Riley go, herself, unless something shook her up. She had him in a nice "boyfriend pocket" to take out when she wanted/needed. I do believe she loved him, but she didn't stay IN love past the summer between 4 and 5.

When you love someone you always use the "I love you" words - and especially when you are young and in a love filled partnership - heck, even if you are very reserved like my husband tends to be, you do tell your partner that you love them back.  If Buffy never tells him that she loves him there is something seriously wrong. 

Watching all the episode together and with the distance of time and more information from the creative staff, I get a much stronger impression of Buffy's love and attachment to Riley.  I still believe that her love and need is motivated very much from her love for Angel/Angelus and needing to be with another man that is totally the opposite and Riley comes into her life at just the right time to fill that need.

I don't count Owen as a  serious relationship and the circumstances of her relationship with Angel/Angelus are so complicated due to his curse and soul that her trying to leave him after their Lover's Walk Spike visit is not quite the same as just leaving a relationship from personal wants.  The term "dump" for me has the connotation of leaving your partner for convenience or simply because you are tired or just don't love that person now.  What Buffy did with Angel/Angelus (tried to do) is nothing like that - it was done due to the curse and all the potential horrors that came from his losing his soul again.  This is totally different from walking away because you just don't want to be with someone anymore.  Dumping, that would be what she does to Spike after Mr. Joe Normal comes back again.

Buffy, IMO, is doing exactly what her commitment to the relationship with Riley demands - she is working hard to make it possible.  Getting angry or hurt would be a normal reaction except when your purpose is to prop up your partner and try to deal with his insecurities. And Riley is in prime jealous and insecure mode.  After all, Buffy just ran off to LA and left him to go to Angel/Angelus - if Buffy had been honest and all "open" with him about their history together, maybe  Riley would not have gone into meltdown mode. 

Agreed to all that nmcil.

I don't think she was ever in love with Riley so much as she wanted to be.  He knew it and so did a good portion of the audience.

I'm fairly certain the only person she was ever in love with was Angel.

I'm fairly certain the only person she was ever in love with was Angel.  Oh man, Scarlet.  Them are Fighting Words! 

Buffy only threw herself into a relationship with Riley after she made out big time with Spike - AND, she took her sweet time about it too, first she's on and then she finds out he's a soldier guy and she says forget it (and one wonders why - you'd think Riley being Demon Aware would be a plus on the Fry Cook scheme of things.)  Then she says okay we'll have hot sex and make your frat house into a jungle, then she ignores him while she piddles around with Spike.  Then, she goes to see Angel.  Then she tells Angel she loves someone (supposedly Riley) with all her heart, but she never actually says I love you to the guy she's supposedly doing all that heart loving with, then she has some beers with Spike, then she whacks him around, then she has the soulful moment on the back porch with Spike, who just happens to have a shotgun in his hands when he shows up.  She's never really whole hearted about Riley. 

Oh man, Scarlet.  Them are Fighting Words! 

Ha ha!  *snicker*

Yeah, she just loves to cause trouble...lol!  Sure, Buffy did love Angel at the time, as much as any young girl could, but I still believe that she loved Spike.  She didn't pick the best time to tell him that, but she did tell him.  Those words have never been easy for her before.  She would only say it if she really meant it.  And when Tara asked her if she loved him, she never denied it.  That's my story and I'm sticking to it=P

I'm fairly certain the only person she was ever in love with was Angel.  Oh man, Scarlet.  Them are Fighting Words! 


What I find so disturbing and even hateful about Buffy-Angel Forever is how the writers and Joss Whedon always drag Angel back and insert him into any Buffy relationship - it's like they never really allow the girl to grow up and mature.  Right smack in the middle of Buffy-Riley they send her off to take care of her first love - Angel's a big boy bad vamp champion, he doesn't need her to protect him and she sure doesn't need Angel to protect her.  Then they start a relationship with Spike, a relationship that could have been great with someone that was her equal warrior and would have transformed himself for his love and their life together - except they instead trash both the characters.  Now all that trashing is fine, but they never go really as deep into the emotional motivations of the characters that  their story demands.  And why after all the trauma and heart breaking journey that they put Buffy and Spike on does Joss Whedon feel compelled to yet again drag Angel/Angelus back into the series finale with Buffy's  - I still think about a potential us. 

What was the importance and point of the Buffy-Riley love affair if they end their arc with Buffy running after this man, that was not  really a good match for her?  Was Buffy suppose to lower her on potential and strengths to prop up Riley?  Then we have all the Slayer ala crazy bitch mode, one day I like Spike and could love him and the next day, I loath Spike and am degraded by any association with him.  Back comes Mr. Joe Normal Fantasy and she "dumps" the one man that could really be great with her.  With the way that Buffy seems always to be pulled by her first love and her fantasy normal love ideal - when was she ever going to be allowed to be her own strong "hell with all the boy friends and friends - I want and will live life as I want it.  

Even with the development to her character and leadership role in Season Seven all it took, IMVHO, to pull her back from her growth as a strong and independent woman is having that kissing scene and her last lines to Angel/Angelus. 

I sure missed something fundamental about Buffy's character and her story - I just don't get why she had such a strong need to give up so much of herself to the men in her life.

Yep, I completely agree with all of that.

You're so right, nmcil! I was actually watching S4 with my friend who has never seen Buffy before and she asked me more than once why they kept inserting Angel back. Actually, the writers seem to like dragging Buffy's ex boyfriends back quite a lot. Angel pops up when she's in a  relationship with Riley, then Riley appears in AYW (hate that epi with passion) when she's in a relationship (if you can call it that) with Spike. Finally, Angel once again comes back in the finale, and Buffy kisses him, which I find kind of ridiculous as she and Spike finally seem to be able to be together without hurting each other. Also, I can't imagine Buffy and Angel having a relationship at that point, since they have both changed. Buffy has became a leader, and we all know that Angel is unable to be a follower... that would lead nowhere good IMO. I liked Angel with Cordy, since she seemed to be the only woman able to handle him, to be his equal, but without them fighting over the dominant position.

In S4 in general, I hate how they made Buffy so weak, thinking she simply had to have a boyfriend. She should have tried to find out who she was after the angst filled relationship with Angel before rushing into the relationship with Riley just ebcause he was so 'normal'. The whole idea of normal that she seems to be so fixated on seems ludicrous to me... her life will never be normal, so why would she want that anyway?

Riley is nice, but so very insecure! We can see the gap between them widening in S5, where even Spike knows about Buffy's mom being in the hospital. Buffy not telling Riley could be out of her worry for Jouce's health, but in moments such as these, she should have wanted Riley to be there for her to lean on, not thinking of letting him know as a chore.

In Yoko Factor, I love how Spike was so easily able to manipulate all of them into turning on each other... just shows how much they drifted apart in S4. Especially since Buffy was so invested in her new boyfriend and Initiative. I admit it must have felt nice for her to have so many capable men backing her up, to not fight alone, but she should have questioned their motives.

Ditto and ditto. Having Angel show up just because the series was ending and he was there at the beginning - I'm cool with that. Having him show up and sending a nod to the Bangels with that kiss......stomped on both the Cangels and the Spuffies at the same time. Joss was a wuss for doing that. For those of us that watched both shows at the time, it was really out of character for Angel atm to talk about a future with buffy when Cordy is in a coma and he's just "killed" his son. Cheer him up with memories of watching Buffy kick ass, that's fine. But the other crap......oy. When the First said "That bitch" behind Spike, I was echoing it.

I started watching BTVS seriously with season 4, and Spike cracked me up so much. The character was just fun!!

I'm with the above- I was so pissed at Angel for kissing Buffy and talking about the future with her, because the day before everything went totally screwy with Cordy. It really seemed to devalue the love that Angel felt for Cordy, which I always found deeper and more stable than that he had with Buffy.
Some day I'm gonna write a fic where Cordy crews him out for the series finale kiss with Buffy, because I totally think she should have.  

the writers and Joss Whedon always drag Angel back and insert him into any Buffy relationship  - Why?  Because writers are EVIL!  What better way to aggravate Angel than to have him see Buffy chatting up Riley?  What better way to aggravate Riley than to let him know that Buffy is having beers with Spike and letting him sniff her underwear?  What better way to piss Spike off than to have Angel blow into town and suck on Buffy's face?

Actually nmcil, I was thinking about the difference between graphic arts and writing.  In art, you can have a beautiful painting with some contrast in values or colors or whatever or you can have an exciting or even an ugly painting with really over the top contrast and extremes in colors and values.  Either is acceptable in art.  But, in writing you always have to have conflict.  You can have the beautiful moment or scene, but you pretty quickly have to smash that down and do something mean to your characters or the audience gets bored.

One of Joss's favorite maxims is to never give the audience what it wants.  So, you want to see Spike and Buffy together, it will never happen, but that's what makes you keep coming back for more.  (Among other things.)  You keep hoping they'll get together and Joss rewards you with a little moment here or there - "Do you love me?" in AYW for example.  Wow, when Buffy says that, your heart sings for Spike.  Yeah, she's finally seen the error of her ways.  She sees that Riley is a heartless bum and that Spike is solid gold.  And, then Joss rips it away.  If Joss ever failed to do that, if he ever really let Buffy and Spike come together, you'd lose interest immediately.  I think one of the reasons writing Spuffy is still popular is people can't stand the fact that they didn't end up together, so they keep rearranging the story for a happy ending. 

In s7, Angel, much like Giles in that season, ended up sniffing some mysterious glue, which made him behave so strangely.

While Buffy's one great love of the series is Angel, Angel's great loves are Darla naturally, and Cordelia.  Yes, he loved Buffy, but in the grand scheme of things, she wasn't his "great" love.  Both Angel and Buffy were on a journey to find themselves, and of the two, I think only Angel was successful.  Granted he had about a century over Buffy in doing that, true, but I'm just talking about the span of the BtVS series.  He was able to move on from Buffy.  She, however, was stuck running in place, and kind of still is in comic form, from what I hear.  But yeah--Angel was the only guy she was ever in love with.  Anyone who wants her to be in love with Spike, then that's where fan fic comes in.  It's probably where I came in (the fandom).

I found the "Tell me you love me" in AYW utterly deplorable, for the record, and not as a little reward from Joss (who was not responsible for the ep, and probably didn't pay close attention to it, as he did in oh say, "Hells Bells" ).  Thank you, Doug Petrie, for making her such a bitch in that ep.

I agree that it was quite pathetic her searching for a relationship with the first guy that popped up.  Wanting companionship is fine, but goodness, do you have to settle on the first guy to say hello or be nice to you?  To quote Chris Rock (and warning--it's kind of vulgar and stuff):

"Every time a man's being nice to you [women], he's offering you dick.  'Cause every woman in here, ever since you were … every guy you met has been trying to fuck you. That's right. Women are offered dick every day. Every woman in here … gets offered dick at least three times a week. Three times a day, shit! That's right, every time a man's being nice to you … all he's doing is offering dick. That's all it is. "Can I get that for you? – How about some dick?" "Could I help you with that? – Could I help you to some dick?

Er, that was mostly in reference to Parker and not Riley, but still--she did settle with him just cause he got Willow's approval, and seemed normal.  It was a farce, and season six was the same thing, but waaaaaay in the opposite end of the spectrum.

BTW  - I Love Chris Rock

"I found the "Tell me you love me" in AYW utterly deplorable, for the record, and not as a little reward from Joss"
 
Totally agree with you on this - I think if there is ever an episode where viewers can really come away with a great dislike, anger and even revulsion it is AYW - not even in DTngs do you feel Buffy is so pathetic.  It makes me cringe just to think about what they did with her character soon as Riley comes back into her life.  I understand that in the context of the dreamscape treatment, which is how I interpret AYW and DTngs it all makes for a horrible twisted Buffy inner life - but really, it's like Buffy goes into an emotional breakdown.  The whole metaphor of destruction and explosion and attacking her subliminal whipping boy makes for powerful drama and story telling, but I know one thing - I would never ever want a daughter or a friend to; any woman to have to live with that level of need. 

Where Spike is desperate for love, he never gets as pathetic as Buffy did with Riley's return - I've been working with this episode and screencaps and Buffy is such a bitch and selfish creature - and of course the writers have to show Spike as her counterpart in sleazy macho  treatment when Riley finds them together. 

JM and SMG are terrific in AYW - their use of body language and statement of their total lack to connection outside of sex is excellent - after all that time using their bodies to make love for Spike and to escape for Buffy - what we are shown is two people who embrace themselves.  Spike is like trying to find that connection and love which Buffy asked for on his own body.

I am so excited and curious to see just where Joss Whedon takes Buffy in the last phase of the Comic Season - It interesting that he gives Buffy's Slayerhood as a reason and explanation for putting such a young girl with such a mature and experienced man in her love affair with Angel/Angelus - but Buffy seems to me to have not grown much as a woman.  Outside of her development in character and leadership during Season Seven, to be she is still being treated like such a young and emotionally underdeveloped young woman. 

Am I wrong to think that having been The Slayer for such a long time and having lived through all the horrors that she experienced, that Buffy should be much stronger emotionally by now.

Agreed about the body language--right before Riley bursts in, we see them lying on that sarcophagus, but not close--not touching.  It's so incredibly sad.  Although, Spike was pathetic by letting all that happen to him--he didn't have his rocks back like thought he did.  They were just plain gone.  But at the same time, he didn't know any better, unfortunately--he wasn't his own man (yet) and had no real perspective.  He was just used to being the man that (insert name of love interest here) wanted him to be, and lost part of his own identity in the process.  Buffy should have, and had all the tools and evidence that could have made her more aware, but they were mysteriously MIA in AYW. So yeah--more pathetic.

Am I wrong to think that having been The Slayer for such a long time and having lived through all the horrors that she experienced, that Buffy should be much stronger emotionally by now.

No.  She seems to be emotionally crippled or something.  And she had a hell of a time, sending Angel to hell.  But other than that, as far as her personal relationships go, she hasn't been through much than average.  Can't count the Angelus stuff, because in her mind, that wasn't Angel, and therefore, doesn't count.  So her emotional damage as far as personal relationships go stem from killing Angel (or sending him to hell, rather), breaking up with Angel, and finally Angel dumping and leaving her.  Beyond that--there is the whole Parker thing, which happens to a lot of women.  The point is, she survived it, and life went on.  But I'm not sure she learned anything/took away anything from any relationship with any of the men she's dealt with.

She doesn't separate Angel and Angelus by name, though. Just saw Season 2 again recently, and everyone calls him Angel. Everyone says "Angel did this, did that..." She gives a pass for soul/no soul, but it all went with the same name. Angelus is mostly used by the other demons, until later and on ATS. It was Angel, it just wasn't Angel with a soul.

Yeah, especially in the passage of comic time, Buffy should have found some kind of emotional equilibrium by now. Even if she decided "this is all I'll have/get", it would have been acceptance of her life view. But she ALWAYS wants "else". If she has normality, it doesn't satisfy. If she has supernatural, it doesn't satisfy. No matter what, she can't just "be". Maybe she's one of those that won't get there until her 30s. With Joss deciding, who knows???

It's the sad thing about the comics, as post-S7, that's a time in Buffy's story when she could show she's learned a lot of things. That she's a woman, an adult, seasoned. And there's not a single one of the professional writers that's put her there. Thank goodness fans have seen the potential and put it in fanfic.

"If Joss ever failed to do that, if he ever really let Buffy and Spike come together, you'd lose interest immediately.  I think one of the reasons writing Spuffy is still popular is people can't stand the fact that they didn't end up together, so they keep rearranging the story for a happy ending."

I totally agree, Spikez-tart. I'm reminded of the chemistry between David & Maddy in 'Moonlighting'. We went through their agonies and ecstasies with them constantly urging them to get together, but as soon as they did and the UST was resolved, the series lost its way and everybody stopped watching. Mind you... that doesn't stop me watching the BtVS episodes again and again, hoping in vain the this time Buffy would accept him or this time Spike wouldn't put his foot in his mouth and provoke that inevitable punch on the nose. Sad, aren't I?

Mind you... if it ever came time for the comics to come to an end (I gave up reading them after the interlude with Satsu... so very out of character!) I couldn't think of a more perfect ending than Buffy & Spike coming together at last for their 'Happy ever after', slaying the baddies together as they sauntered off into the sunset (or more likely... the moonlight).

Gonna nitpick here, but--

or this time Spike wouldn't put his foot in his mouth and provoke that inevitable punch on the nose.

Disagree.  To quote Chris Rock again, "...There's a reason to hit everybody. You just don't do it..."

And I also disagree on the sentiment that if they actually got together that people would lose interest.  They can be together out in the open and happy with each other, and everything else around them can bring in external conflict, and people will still want to know what comes next.  Fan fic has proved it, other shows have proved it--allowing a main character to achieve happiness in their personal life, even if everything else can fail.  They didn't have to make Spike and Buffy The Waltons or something, but they didn't have to be an anthem for abuse either.

And yes, Buffy shouted from the rooftops that "Angel has a soul now!" which gave him a pass.  Spike walked a harsher path in her eyes.  He only really got a pass on the things he'd done because of the trigger given to him by The First.  Not that I am making a distinction with Spike souled/un souled, but I just thought that Buffy should have had an iota of consistency in s7 or hey, s6.

Have Joss Whedon or any of the other writers ever explained or discussed just what the theme of "soul" means in the series? 

Scarlet - LOL at that C Rock quote - it's so so true. 

"Tell me you love me" I saw this as poor Buffy gets her heart ripped out by Riley (runs off to the jungle and pines away for her at least three days and gets married to Sam the Smug Bitch, and I note that Riley never asked Buffy to marry him).  So she's about as far down in the ditch as she can get and she goes to Spike for solace (not unlike the way Spike and Anya hook up.)  And, yeah its a crappy thing to do to Spike, but I can appreciate Buffy's feeling so miserable and grasping at the only straw.  It's excellent in terms of writing, sucks you in, then guts your heart out with a jagged edge knife.

I am so excited and curious to see just where Joss Whedon takes Buffy in the last phase of the Comic Season  - Forget it.  It sucks.  Buffy's character sucks the most. 

Sad, aren't I?  No All4spike - you're obsessed.  I'm totally positive on obsession.  :)

Spike wouldn't provoke that inevitable punch on the nose.  Buffy does take a sock at Angel in a crossover show and she whacks Parker on the head with a big stick.  She hits her mother and Dawn and probably others I can't think of at the moment.  

 

Nmcil- I don't recall them ever defining the soul, but they treat it like it elevates the characters. Until "Him," in which Dawn and Xander object to Spike, saying that the soul really doesn't change anything. Kind of four seasons too late, and, of course, only in conjunction to Spike. Because the writers are so desperate to make us hate him, instead of seeing him as a victim. Isn't that what "Seeing Red" was all about? :)

Nmcil, it's just humanity vs. the lack of it. No metaphor for the soul has been discussed that I heard. Just that humans have one, which means having a conscience and empathy in their eyes, and vampires didn't.

As for Angel and Spike, at a convention Fury, DeKnight, and Jane E discussed the quandary that came with Spike's journey after Angel was already established. The set rule was that Buffy couldn't have a sanctioned relationship with any character without a soul, so they'd never have it work out between Spike and Buffy unless he got it.....and then they had to come up with a reason for him to get it, and then not make Spike's soul thing look like a rehash of Angel's soul thing. They really squirm when a fan asks them if Spike choosing the soul puts him ahead of Angel being cursed with one. And it was also a rule that Angel had the soul first, so they couldn't say in plain English on the show that Spike might be better with his. (They didn't want to bash one character with another, of course. It's like choosing between your children.)

The set rule was that Buffy couldn't have a sanctioned relationship with any character without a soul, so they'd never have it work out between Spike and Buffy unless he got it.....and then they had to come up with a reason for him to get it, and then not make Spike's soul thing look like a rehash of Angel's soul thing. They really squirm when a fan asks them if Spike choosing the soul puts him ahead of Angel being cursed with one.

The set rule was retarded.  To quote Spike: Doesn't seem to me it matters very much how you start out.

<--thinks the set rule should have been to not have the heroine act soulless.

Technically, Spike would be ahead of Angel cause he purposely sought out to get his soul.  But at the end of the day, who cares?  Different journeys but same result--two champions.  One took the road less taken, while the other was dragged along the road less taken.  But of the three, Fury seemed to accept that--he was the one who ensured how the fight in "Destiny" went (Spike winning) and what was said.

And it seemed to me that humanity, going with what the show presented us with, had nothing to do with who had a soul and who didn't.  Not even humanity, but who was "good" or not.  They showed Spike could be better than some humans without a soul.  Hard to backtrack on that one, and when they tried, it was pretty lame.

if Spike choosing the soul puts him ahead of Angel being cursed with one. - Some of the writers discuss on the Angel DVDs whether or not the Angel show should really have been about Spike!  There is a distinction between Angel and Spike.  Angelus is always trying to throw off the soul and he never wants to get it back either. 

<--thinks the set rule should have been to not have the heroine act soulless.  Heh heh.  Maybe Buffy doesn't have one either when she "comes back wrong." 

"Different journeys but same result--two champions.  One took the road less taken, while the other was dragged along the path less taken. "

So true, each are great and wonderful in their own way and journey - of the two, I really feel more sorry for Angel/Angelus because he never ever seems to be able to break away from how his history keeps coming back on his life as Angel.  Spike, I think has the more human story, his profound loneliness and want to love at least had some relief but Angel/Angelus just keeps hurting, either from his own choices or like with Holtz, his Angelus deeds always chasing him.

<--thinks the set rule should have been to not have the heroine act soulless.  Heh heh.  Maybe Buffy doesn't have one either when she "comes back wrong." 

NICE -

In Joss Whedon's own words, Spike was the more evolved of the two vampires because Spike does voluntarily fight for and win his soul back.  But like Scarlet Ibis states - each ends up a champion trying to fight "the good fight."

Gee, if I could get Joss alone in a room for five minutes, I know what I'd like to point out to him and then watch his reaction.  His premise for the Buffy movie was that the blond girl is followed into the alley but instead of becoming a victim, she emerges as the victor.  So he says he was trying to show a strong woman character and set a good example for little girls growing up everywhere.  Really?  He doesn't show her as a strong woman.  He shows her as someone who feels she is not complete in herself.  She has to have a boyfriend to validate her "worthiness".  She is constantly in a relationship or seeking a relationship--even an unhealthy one like hers with Spike in season 6 is better to her than none at all. 

 It isn't really until season 7 that she grows up and stands on her own two feet--and even then she loses faith in herself after she is kicked out of the house until Spike comes along and gives that wonderful "You're the one" speech.  (Not that I could ever regret that marvelous moment, of course!)  But after all that "growth" in season 7, she turns around and immediately gets involved with the Immortal, and I hear the comics continue in the same vein
. 
Instead of being a strong woman, Buffy always let others dictate who she was or should be.  Angel wanted her to have a normal relationship, so she tried. (And Willow encouraged her to have a relationship with Riley, too.)  After Xander gave her a pep talk,  she ran after Riley when he helicoptered off even tho' she had previously decided to let him go.  Parker dumped her, so she immediately thought their was something wrong with her instead of thinking maybe there was something wrong with Parker.  She couldn't have a positive, open relationship with Spike because the Scoobies wouldn't have liked it. etc., etc.

It is one thing to find someone you truly love.  It is another to just be in love with love because you think that is what people expect of you.  Joss, you made your heroine both weak and codependent.   You let us gals down!

NICE POST Sensei

I'll cut Buffy a bit of slack and say...she stopped pursuing Ben in s5, and she also didn't give a crap what her friends thought of Spike in that same season toward the end.  S6 is when it went downhill again, and the total of opposite of where she left off in s5 which was just plain stupid.  I really didn't get the turn around for the worse...

Also terribly stupid to be kicked out of your own house.  I mean, really...

I agree with everything you've said Sensei.. .except about the relationship with the Immortal in Ats season 5. We discover in the comics that that isn't really her, it's one of the decoys put out to confuse all the baddies out to get her, while she's at the Slayer base in Scotland. Mind you... the point you made is still valid as in reality she is thrown into a new relationship... this time in the form of a one night stand with one of the trainee Slayers! (That was when I stopped reading the comics).

As for being kicked out of her own house, Scarlet Ibis... her self-esteem was at an all-time low when she knew she'd made an error of judgement, her confidence was shaken and they all turned on her when she didn't have Spike there to back her up. What she should have done was tell them that if they didn't want to follow her any more they could all bugger off and find somewhere else to stay and stop leeching off her hospitality! That would have shown her as a strong female character!

True, I really wish she would have stood up to all of them.  In my opinion, she was strongest in the 7th season, so that would have been more in character, but I still love that Spike gave them a piece of his mind, beat on Faith, then went to look for Buffy.  That will never stop being awesome to me, and of course I loved his speech.  It's still one of my favorites.  

The Immortal plot is the only thing in the comics that I could actually get on board with, everything else that I've heard is just horrible.

I sure would love to have some of the wonderful ff writers here offers their ideas on this -

From the perspective of a writer, or from critic and analysis of the craft of writing and story telling - why take Buffy on this huge spin with all the Spike Relationship darkness?  The season begins on such a different path and then they take her character into such a dark and bad place, emotionally, spiritually and even just plain old mean spirited and cold hearted cruel behavior. 

What, from the perspective of the writer or literature analysis/critique, what would be some of the reasons that the writers used such a drastic treatment for Buffy.  Spike seemed more like he simply became caught in the whirlwind of Buffy and like he was more on a "reacting to mode" to all the things that she effects.  It the beginning of the season, he seems to be more on equal field with her, but it very quickly all goes dark.

I'm working on a new film project and seeing all those individual images makes their story even more of a heartache.  Especially now, that the comic business arrangements have forced a separation of the storyline - everything between Buffy and Spike left with such a sense of "unfinished" surrounding their journey together.  

Can someone tell me the time difference between "Chosen" and when the comic season eight starts -

Much of what went on in Season Six was based on the relationship they'd built up between Buffy and souls. And Angel, who was now a hero on his own show.  For soulless Spike to become so popular on his own, and to become the chosen partner for Buffy for so many fans, didn't fit with what they had decided was an important tenant of the Buffyverse.  So, they had to show that her relationship with him was bad-dirty-wrong and part of her depression over being alive again, rather than being another example of her turning to the man/vampire who had become a trusted friend in the previous season (and in the beginning of this one). I don't know that they see Buffy's behavior towards Spike in quite the same way we do, because they want us to believe that he deserved it. (Or, that, at least, it didn't matter that much). Of course, they were wrong...

I'm sure CM or someone who knows/remembers conversations with the writers about the season will have more to offer. I'm just going on my own ideas about why it went where it did.

nmcil - I think the reason Joss took the direction he did in S6 is that he didn't want to cheapen what had happened to Buffy.  He didn't want to drag her back, have her be miserable for one episode, then la la la, I'm all happy camper again.  So, he went through a series of steps to show her floundering around trying to get a grip on what her friends had done to her and her struggle to deal with her life post-Mom.  (Angel gives Spike a hard time in A5 Just Rewards on just this point - "You spent three weeks moaning in a basement, and then you were fine! What's fair about that?! ")

Also, frankly, I think Joss had run out of gas on the big bad front.  How many apocalypses can you do before the audience says to themselves, ho hum, here comes the end of the world again. I enjoyed the Trio, and they were a welcome break from Let's Destroy the World!   The First was stupid and BORING.  Same with Angel when they had The Beast monster that turned off the sun or whatever the hell he was doing.  BORING. 

What she should have done was tell them that if they didn't want to follow her any more they could all bugger off and find somewhere else to stay and stop leeching off her hospitality! That would have shown her as a strong female character     You are so right.  She should have started with Dawn and the Superpals.  The nerve of that bunch!  What they did was even worse when you think that since all the houses were abandoned, there probably wasn't a single house left in Sunnydale where Buffy could actually go to sleep without some vampire walking in and killing her.  Jerks.

Was the plan for Spike that the viewers should see his journey as separate from Buffy's do you think?  the reason I ask is because Spike was given so many heroic moments and yet Buffy really gives off all those vibes of truly loathing him in season six - after the early episodes.  The two characters were tied together so intimately, both emotionally, physically and certainly as metaphor yet the primary connections seem to be all about hatred and anger from Buffy toward Spike and from Spike, its all about love and sacrifice.  Were the writers thinking that viewers would be moved toward the sympathy for Buffy and, what should we call it; respect for Spike and his "transformation journey" but never expect them to be seen or accepted as equals or suitable partners in any way romantically? 

So Spike, from the writers and entire Whedonverse big picture formula can never find a romantic resolution with Buffy.  Of course now that the franchise has been broken up and seemingly the time lines are not going to converge and crossover again,  the Spike-Buffy question, except for a great many viewers and readers, no longer matters. 

I can see and totally appreciate that Joss Whedon wants a new place to take and explore his Buffyverse - it makes perfect creative sense.  And I want to take that "move on to other things" with him, so I am trying to understand more of the series from the writers approach  and especially the Buffy-Spike relationship.

And I totally agree with the needed change away from another Big Bad - turning the Scoobies and Buffy into their own worst big bads was good for the series, at least it was for me.  Much more interesting.

Kind of responding to the last several comments, but--

The note that Buffy and Spike ended on felt like an ending (of them) to me--she didn' t love him, and he let her go.  I was fine with that.

I agree with the sentiment that Buffy should have just told them all where to go in "Empty Places," instead of allowing them to kick her out of her own house.  "You don't like how I run things, then fine.  No one is keeping you all here."  Especially the folks who didn't even live there/weren't staying there.  Xander.  Wood.  The potentials.  Faith and Giles were just visitors.  Pfft.

Slayme, I think...Spike gained popularity in s5, and in s5, they had Buffy treat him like an equal, and not give a crap what her friends thought before it closed.  Now, to do a total one-eighty on that was completely ridiculous.  Tart--it's totally fine to not have Buffy be all "la la la/happy camper" after one ep, however, it was not fine at all to have her be be all Bitch Monster from Hell to the person who had his hands clean in bringing her back, and therefore, making her life oh so miserable.  Not to mention the fact we've seen her do that for one ep before--"When She Was Bad"--and at least then, she was a bitch to everyone equally.  S6 was crap--don't act as if Spike's soulless status didn't lessen the good things he did in one season, and then shortly after the next starts, make a big deal out of it.  It's inconsistent and therefore, poor form as a writer.  It was essentially an imaginary conflict.  Fan fic writers have done/are doing it better.

I know we're talking about how Buffy treated Spike in season six, but I also found the way she treated dawn half the time to be poor writing. LIke Scarlet pointed out, Buffy went all 'bitch monster from hell' (Lol) to both the people who had no part in bringing her back- Dawn and Spike. Spike she treated like crap, and Dawn she just ingored (I don't even LIKE Dawn and I felt sorry for her all season). Buffy gave her life for Dawn, and then season six she barely acknowledges her existance besides when she's in trouble (and even then she pawns responsibility off). That's inconsistant to the max and kinda comes across as a large plot/character hole. Especially since she goes out of her way to please her friends, but not the little sister she died to save.
I always thought that maybe the writers were trying to make us OD on Dawn related angst- clearly the ENTIRE SEASON of it before wasn't enough. lol

Oh, and about the soul- I remember reading or hearing an interview somewhere that one of the writers said that, because of the set up they had had with Angel, there was no way they could make Spike a hero without one (though, apparently all the good things throughout season five and six didn`t make him a hero before that).

One of the great things about fanfic (and one of the things that keeps it going, IMHO) is that there are so many characters on this show (shows, if you count AtS) who could be explored more than happened on screen. With Buffy and Angel being the respective stars and main characters, sometimes the others were pushed into the background. Fanfic - expecially gen fanfic - allows authors to delve into these other characters and give them their own stories.  I love my Spuffy, but it's nice to read about the other characters sometimes too. They are can be made interesting.

Yeah, I don't blame Sarah for being unhappy with where they took Buffy in S6. She didn't think Buffy would do a lot of what she did, how she did it. It's a shame Joss was kind of a dictator in how he ran things, idea-wise.

Joss still signed off on the scripts, but the day-to-day steering for most of S6 was Marti Noxon. Who even jokes about "ruining season six" in a round-table interview in a special feature in the BTVS all seasons box set. (Funniest part of that for me was that none of the others disagreed, even Joss.)

I don't believe that Marti Noxon and all the other writers would have taken the extreme treatments of Buffy and the Buffy-Spike relationship without the approval of Joss Whedon - He does give them a great deal of creative freedom, but if he had strong opinions or fundamental concern with what was being done with the characters I am sure he express those concerns. 

I started watching season six again, since I had to look through some particular scene and being in the middle of reading the fine work from Lizzerrbeathan, I felt like going back to refresh my memories of that season.  I just don't get the huge change that happens from the first few episodes to the destructo derby of Buffy-Spike.  I don't mind that they took that road, it is after all their series and creation, but I do mind the transition without  taking the viewers through an exploration and set-up for what happens to Buffy.   Considering just how extreme they became with her conduct in season six, the Buffy is depressed and Buffy feels shitty and incompetent just does not do it for me - not with the extremes that they took Buffy. 

sosa lola:

"I'm really disappointed in the writers. I hate when they go "Buffy rocks, everybody else sucks" on us. I like it much more when the writing is more objective than subjective. Especially when they don't allow us to understand the others' POV more, that's the problem when you write the main characters as background characters."

This was a very strange pattern for their heroine and especially when connected to the Buffy really does not love Spike theme. 

1.  Xander's big "Trust Her" speech
2.  Buffy   big throw out and rebellion
3.  Group "we don't know how to lead  - male mentor symbols, Giles and Wood give moral support to Faith - Spike the accuser & loyalty
4.  Spike - your the one speech - moral support from male figure to Buffy
5.  Buffy from support and reinvestment finds her inner strengths and moral courage again.

Do the writers care that it is the male figures that are setting up the parameters for Buffy's heroine role model in this arc? 

Scarlet Ibis -  I'm fine with the resolution to Buffy and Spike - If she doesn't love him, she just does not.  People don't have control where their heart and love lead them.  Even aside from all the connections with the metaphors from CWDP and Cassie/Cassandra, the visuals of their last scene and all the push me/pull me treatment of their relationship story.  Spike's  letting her go works as a beautiful and powerful exit for our vamp hero - he either let's her go from his  understanding and love motivated heart, or he believes and accepts that everything he did for her was simply never enough to touch her heart and soul where her love exist.   For many viewers, this ending even placed Spike as the ultimate metaphor hero taking precedence over Buffy's role. 

Considering that the only reason Angel Season 5 was allowed to go into production was the addition of Spike, it makes perfect sense that a separation of Buffy and Spike had to happen - thus the eradication of her "I love you" line when he appears at  Angel.  Spike at Angel could not be connected, except on a very limited way, at all with Buffy - how they handled this separation, I think worked really well.  We know that Spike still loves her and thinks of her, even wants to go to her,but he makes the choice to be the independent hero and stay with Angel in his arena - Spike wears and wins his Hero Cup and Grace for himself. 

And the fact of the matter is that the real world, which the Whedonverse reflects, has its millions of Dobbins, Cyranos and Annas.

Nmcil, Joss did give his approval on the scripts, and yes, he was involved, but his attention on Season 6 past OMWF seemed less. I believe he was writing "Firefly" at the time, in anticipation of it going to air Autumn of 2002, as well as overseeing AtS like usual.
By season 7, most of Joss' attention is on "Firefly" and the daily running of BTVS is really with Marti, and AtS with Tim Minear. Only after "Firefly" ended in Dec 2002 was Joss back to making sure they wrapped Season 7 up (there was also delay in Sarah giving her final answer on whether she was done).

Joss didn't have concerns at all, at least not that he shared with anyone. Sarah did, and we all know how being the only near-naked person on set affected James (who has said that was Marti's influence many times), but Joss plowed on. (James has said he likes and is used to being a team player on sets, so he hasn't spoken up for himself a few times when he probably should have.)

My personal opinion is that most, maybe all, Hollywood writers has at least a bit of a warped perspective on the real world because they don't live in it. Especially those that got picked up in the business young, so they didn't work regular jobs with regular people first. Therefore, they're kinda blind to how their writing can come across, and sometimes think they're saying one thing, when the work really says the opposite. Look how Dawn was written in Season 5 - her behavior is not typical of a 14-year-old, and that's probably because 1, the writers didn't remember how 14-year-old girls were, and 2, none of them had teen children at the time. It isn't until she's 16 in season 7 that she's finally portrayed like a real girl consistently.
Just one example.
I think most of us can agree that they missed the mark on feminism re: Buffy growing into a strong woman and a role model. Joss did make a comment about his heroine actually being an anti-hero, but that seemed to be bandaging after the fact - damage control. He was a lot better at steering anti-heroes that become heroes (Spike, Angel) than a true hero that's flawed but learns and grows. Joss is a good creator........but he also has an ego and can be a tough boss........and I don't know if he had an environment where one of his writing team could say "I'm sorry, but I think you're dead wrong with that idea". From the few comments I've gathered, it didn't seem so, but those were from actors........the writers always kiss his butt publicly. Maybe he found a team of yes-people....we just can't know without seeing the process first hand.

And, it's not only writers that have a say in the story - directors do, too. Directors cut the ep, sometimes with input from the writer, then the network looks at it and makes their cut suggestions if they have any. But, with the schedule of TV production, there's no time to re-shoot if a director messed up their guidance to the actors, or the look/feel of the scene. Everybody has to shrug and send it to air. There could be season 6 scenes that came off more harsh than they were intended. Don't know. (It did happen in AtS Season 5 with the Spike/Harmony scene.) It's hard to get TV people to admit mistakes on a product they still want to profit from. Poking holes in their work doesn't help their bottom line. ;)

I knew CM would have the real skinny! :)

1. Angel came to Sunnydale and snuck around and Buffy went to LA . Did neither of them know how to dail a phone and give the person they were worried about a heads up? It would have made so much more sense.

2. AYW had a plot hole big enough to drive a 18 wheeler through, much like the Angel epi where that actress drugged him and he went all Angelus. That made no sense either but it's preferable because I loved the way Cordy death with Angelus. It's also why I like Cordy with Angel because she doesn't take his crap and she left him tied up after the drugs wore off. In AYW I wanted to smack Buffy for simpering after Riley and blindly believing him. I also wanted to throw the remote at the tv like I did when she chased after Riley when he ran off.

3. Spike's soul is better than Angel's.Spike decided to get a soul and got it. Angel was cursed with a soul, didn't bother to find out the particular's of the curse before the curse was broke, and not only didn't seem to do jack to find a way to anchor it afterwards. In fact it seemed like he was deliberately trying to lose it by sleeping with Darla. Plus it's pretty insulting to Nina that he sleeps with her and isn't perfectly happy. Not to mention dangerous for her because there's no way of knowing when being with her could make her perfectly happy. I'd have a better opinion of him is he had just once asked how Spike got a soul. His response to Buffy telling him Spike has a soul is to get snippy not to ask how he got it.

4, Comics Buffy sucks royally. I had hoped Buffy would grow and mature , she just keeps getting worse.

1. Before s7 of Buffy, the only people we see use a phone (not indoors and if I recall correctly) are Spike, Angelus, Drusilla...all soulless peeps.  Well, what does that say?  :P

2.  With you all the way on AYW.  However, that s1 ep of Ats where he turned into Angelus...I could buy it because our mind is a part of who we are--not just the soul.  And the meds she gave him affected his brain.  More believable than AYW leagues over, at any rate.

3.  I'm not sure one can really say which soul is better than the next...but Spike and Angel's circumstances and journeys were so vastly different, that's it's quite unfair to compare them in a way, be they souled or unsouled and how they came to be.  And it wasn't just sex that made Angel lose his soul--there was a lot factoring into it, such as the fact that she was the fighter of good, accepting him fully (no pun), or the fact that they nearly died, or that she was a virgin...it wasn't just one thing.

I'd have a better opinion of him is he had just once asked how Spike got a soul.

Thank you for that plot bunny.  It's possible he did, but we just didn't get to see it.  Yes, I will have to fanwank that one...

As for him "going all Dawson" on Buffy, well, really that's only time we even see those two joke around a little--when they talk about Spike.  Everything else is either boring or doom and gloom in that moment.  Angel being all mopey at the new kid on the soul having block was just...well I found it utterly adorable (and blocked out the rest, natch).

4.  Word.

Angel lost his soul because he took comfort in Buffy. The trigger works when he lets the guilt go to a non-present part of his mind. It's not so much happy or not happy, but how much he lets go. By the time he's with Nina, he knows absolutely that he can't go mindless during any activity. They still had good sex, but he was being careful about his thoughts.

The actress gave him Ecstasy. He was high, man. Feeling no pain and havin' fun. That's why it brought out the Angelus side. It's all about his mentality at any given time.

Angel tried to use a cell phone in his car on AtS, but...well, LOL. He couldn't get it to work, then the battery died. I loved the bits when they showed he's an old man.

 Wow, CM, you have given me soooo much to think about!  I hadn't thought about it before, but it makes perfect sense when you pointed out that writers in Hollywood don't live "normal" lives so have trouble relating to them and writing about them. 

CM's comment about Sarah being unhappy with the way Buffy was being portrayed leads me to ask everyone, if Buffy hadn't become such a messed up nut case in season 6 and the show hadn't lost all the warm humorous sparkle it had had before which made it so fun for the actors to film, do you think Sarah would have decided to quit doing the show?  I agree with the person who said there are only so many times you can save the world before the audience loses its feeling of suspense, so maybe 7 years would have been a good time to end it.  But since Sarah chose to leave, considering whether to extend it or not wasn't even an option.

Hmmmm, hard question. She probably would have given going beyond 7 years serious thought even if she loved the job then for reasons like typecasting and the long, long hours. As the title character, she was in every ep, and mentioned a lot how she didn't have much time for a life outside work. The show was hard on her physically, too...she mentioned her back a lot in interviews. (And I personally think she got too skinny those last 2 years, too.)
Joss said he could stop or go one more, so he left it to her.....which was nice. He could've just said, yeah, we're done no matter what anyone else wanted. Ratings were lower than UPN wanted, which made the show very costly for them since they outbid the WB, so it might've been hard to get a season 8, anyway. But, with a more spritely storyline and more compelling villains/challenges, the ratings might have been better, so who knows?

Before s7 of Buffy, the only people we see use a phone (not indoors)  Buffy uses a payphone after she sees Spike and Harmony at the party in HLoD; Xander uses a payphone when he gets split in two by the tosser thingamaggie.  I think Buffy uses another payphone to call in to see if Parker the Poop left her a message after he dumped her, too.

"Wow, CM, you have given me soooo much to think about!  I hadn't thought about it before, but it makes perfect sense when you pointed out that writers in Hollywood don't live "normal" lives so have trouble relating to them and writing about them. "
 
Here from my perspective is a very good example of being out of touch with the realities that people have to live through in their real life-
When Dawn makes that comment about the creditors harassing and the endless calls demanding payment.  While it may have been intended as comedy, for people who have lived through that experience, it is anything but comedy. 

And going back to the old argument and discussion about the putting Buffy at that age with Angel/Angelus - while it makes a good story, the reality in the real world is that most parents would never condone or accept this kind of relationship - and then throw in the whole "let's turn Buffy into an attempted murderess from her Angel obsession - who would see that relationship as "beautiful love story  or lost souls passing in the night, etc."

Scarlet Ibis - excellent post regarding Angel/Angelus and his making love with Buffy - its pure joy and bliss of connecting with this innocent and pure young love - the complete opposite and contradiction to him Angelus treatment of Drusilla - maybe it's like for that very small part of time he could find release from his guilt about Dru.

near-naked person on set affected James (who has said that was Marti's influence many times),   Bless you Marti, wherever you are.

Does Angel actually have sex with Nina?  I missed a couple of eps and my worthy husband keeps bouncing the disks to the bottom on the Netflix list.  I know he has sex with Eve and Spike crows about it. 

Yes, he does, right before he sends her away.