In canon Buffy Universe it seems to be frequently implied that a soul is the thing that gives us the ability to feel guilt, but it also gives examples of that not being the entire truth. For example Spike felt guilt for not saving Dawn and it leading to Buffy jumping. He definitely also felt guilt for the attempted rape (arguably, but not the point) and for killing his mother. Harmony felt guilty for trying to feed on Cordelia.

There are more examples, but those stuck out in my mind. So this means soulless vampires do feel guilt and they are also capable of love. Spike loved Buffy and Dru, and in a different way his mother, Joyce and Dawn too. Harmony loved Spike. Dru love Angelus (In her own insane way, but that really wasn’t her fault). Even Darla might have loved Angelus and maybe even the Master.

But they still don’t feel remorse for killing and feeding on most humans, which makes everything more complicated and harder to understand.

What I think is, that it all has to do with the human they used to be and the beliefs they held while alive. I mean we all know what is right and wrong in our society, particularly the society we ourselves live in, but it might be harder to know what was right a hundred or a thousand years ago.

To give an example lets look at how our society looks on seducing a younger girl. We intellectually know that it isn’t right so most of us don’t do it, but how many of that group really, truly believe it with everything in them? Basically I think if a vampire who as a human knew seducing a younger person was wrong would find it easy to do it as a vampire. But if while still living even the very thought made them sick to their stomach, that vampire would feel guilty if he did so and try to avoid doing it.

So a soul makes it easier to avoid doing evil, and it makes it harder for someone to be corrupted (but not impossible or even unlikely).

There are of course exceptions, for example probably very few vampires feel guilt after killing someone for food. Let’s face it, there aren’t many humans that believe killing for the sake of survival is abhorrent. What I would like to know is the answer to what would happen if someone turned a pacifist monk (not necessarily, but you’ll get my point) who believed that killing even a spider was an unspeakable tragedy and that every life, however small was important and priceless. I myself don’t think a vampire like that would live for very long. If this monk’s beliefs were strong and sure he might not be willing to feed.

As far as I can see that is why some vampires feel guilt for some things. It really does depend on the human in question.

Answer to your hypothetical Vampire Pacifist Monk - if his human intellectual belief system were fundamental to his perspective of the sanctity of life - he would simply commit suicide.   Godric from True Blood does this when his vampire life ascends to a completely changed perspective of life.  In the Buffyverse however, vampires  do not have guilt over the need to feed from humans and to kill humans.   

In the Buffyverse, other than Spike and Angel/Angelus, we are not shown any other vampires with "guilt" about killing, it is not the natural order.  Spike is singular in his guilt and capacity to love deeply in his vampire life. Lawson, from "Why We Fight" is another very different vampire.  Harmony reflects her human character traits but any remorse is only superficial.  Take her actions in AtS, while the idea of "being a reformed vamp" works for a while, she goes over to  Hamilton and betrays  Angel and the AI Team.  The only other example of a very deep love between vampires that episode about the Vampire Couple, think the name of the male is James - but it has been a very long time since I watched it.  Actually, think I will put that on my Watch Angel list. 

It's James and Elizabeth (I think anyway).

Thanks for the info Niori -

There was some fic (I think by JackofSpike or Immortally Spuffy) that had Anya say something about guilt and cultural perceptions with food. For instance , in America and many other places the idea of eating a dog is horrible to us but to other cultures dog is a delicacy.

People were a food source to Spike for a long time , it's not like he could go to a blood bank. The torture thing was primarily Dru who learned it from Angel. Angel was a sadist right out of the box because of what kind of man he was.

Harmony was pretty shallow as a human and there's no indication she felt guilt with a soul . She actually seemed to have more depth as a vampire than as a human.

I always thought that Angel's whole stance on Vampires not feeling guilt or love was because he couldn't feel that and his ego made him say his failings were universal.

Given Angel's character as a human it makes one think that his curse had an added rider of guilt to it. Guilt that he eventually was able to supress feeling as evidenced by his current comic behavior.

Harmony (on an Angel show where she gets into trouble) says that it's harder for her (than Angel) because she doesn't have a soul, presumably to guide her into good behavior.  There seems to be some relationship between consistently doing the right thing, or making the right choices, and having a soul.  Not having one, means you can't really be trusted to do the right thing. 

Also, Giles, in a New Man, when encouraged by Spike to give him to his new monster feelings, says he won't because he has a conscience (interesting, he doesn't say because he has a soul).  The show seems to conflate the two things.

We should also consider that there is no consistency in the Bverse.  :)

There was some fic (I think by JackofSpike or Immortally Spuffy) that had Anya say something about guilt and cultural perceptions with food. For instance , in America and many other places the idea of eating a dog is horrible to us but to other cultures dog is a delicacy
The fic your thinking about is 'A Penny for Your...' by JackOfSpikes, and if I remember correctly it was the original characters Penny that said that. It was an interesting an interesting story I got to admit.

In the Buffyverse, other than Spike and Angel/Angelus, we are not shown any other vampires with "guilt" about killing, it is not the natural order.
I know but that doesn't mean there aren't any. This forum thread is more about why vampires can feel guilt about certain things and still feel no guilt whatsoever about some other things that should bring remorse. My answer to that is the fact that people believe you should feel more guilty about hitting a girl than about stealing something. But for different people those levels of guilt and what is appropriate for them differs, so it's not even unusual that we haven't seen that many guilt ridden vampires around, there aren't that many people who wouldn't kill someone to get water after spending three days in a desert either. And there isn't much difference between killing someone for blood if your a vampire and killing someone for water if your an incredibly thirsty human.
Besides we never really knew other vampires well enough to know if they ever felt guilt.

The only other example of a very deep love between vampires that episode about the Vampire Couple, think the name of the male is James - but it has been a very long time since I watched it.
It's James and Elizabeth (I think anyway).
Is it weird that I find it ironic they used those two names? The coincidence of the actor that played Spike being James Marsters and Buffy's full name being Elizabeth might not be significant, still it's enough for me to notice it and snort. Anycase they are another couple Angel was responsible for ruining.

James and Elizabeth also bring up the point that Angel knew full well that Vampires could love without a soul but he said they couldn't because of a failing in him.

Really though, if you think about it, isn't the lack of guilt a survival mechanism. Vampires are predators- if they felt bad for their prey, they wouldn't survive very long. It's nature's way of ensuring that they survive, and humans just happen to be the prey. I mean, look at humans, most of us eat meat without a second thought. A lot of people cried when Bambi's mom died, but that doesn't stop a lot of them from eating deer meat.

So yeah, vampires could survive on animal blood, but is it really what's best for them? I mean, again with humans, vegetarians and vegans can survive on no meat, but that means they have to find a way to add extra protein in their diet in order to stay healthy.

So, eating humans isn't what makes vampires evil. It's what makes them a predator. It's all the other crap they do that shifts them into the evil category.

All that said, I would really, really love to see how a turned vegetarian would work out.

the James and Elizabeth reflecting JM and Elizabeth Buffy is the same as using Anne for Spike's mother - both were guides and responsible for the creation of Spike.

I once read a fic where Buffy figured out an answer to this question. She was confronted with Spike doing something evil, and realized that he would mostlikely make mistakes in the future. She realized that a vampire could logically think about good and bad actions, but that was the problem, they had to stop and think about it.

I think it is also possible that Spike could have reacted to all those situations (before the soul) without having guilt.

Examples:  His mother's death. You can morn and miss someone without feelings of guilt. I imagine he was horrified and hurt by his vampire mother's actions and words. He though he had saved her. Then afterwards I imagine he missed her, and his memory of his time with her was tained by those last moments.

Example: Failing to save Dawn. Here also I think he would focus on his failure, rather than guilt. He was given a task by the woman he loved, and he failed. Angel described Spike as dedicated and determined. The show has show him to also have obsessions and have trouble letting go. I imagine that his failure would stay in his thoughts and affect his behavior. What better way to try and undo the failure than by taking care of Dawn and protecting her. He was then also very upset by Buffy's death.

I once read a fic where Buffy figured out an answer to this question. She was confronted with Spike doing something evil, and realized that he would mostlikely make mistakes in the future. She realized that a vampire could logically think about good and bad actions, but that was the problem, they had to stop and think about it.

I think it is also possible that Spike could have reacted to all those situations (before the soul) without having guilt.

Examples:  His mother's death. You can morn and miss someone without feelings of guilt. I imagine he was horrified and hurt by his vampire mother's actions and words. He though he had saved her. Then afterwards I imagine he missed her, and his memory of his time with her was tained by those last moments.

Example: Failing to save Dawn. Here also I think he would focus on his failure, rather than guilt. He was given a task by the woman he loved, and he failed. Angel described Spike as dedicated and determined. The show has show him to also have obsessions and have trouble letting go. I imagine that his failure would stay in his thoughts and affect his behavior. What better way to try and undo the failure than by taking care of Dawn and protecting her. He was then also very upset by Buffy's death.

I still think that the "soul" plot device ultimately works against the vampires in the series -  it is just too much of a convenience.  With Angel, all his actions can be filtered throught the "soul" vs "no soul" - hopefully BS8 will do away with this and make the character fully integrated, no more Angel vs Angelus.  With Spike, the soul issue primarily  complicated the mind and spirit of the character - it put him in this logic loop, IMVHO.  He feels guilt, love, and understands and accepts his responsibility for actions, yet these are things that a vampire should not be able to do as vampires. 

(I'm not getting the quote button to work for me--never could figure it out!) Niori wrote:
All that said, I would really, really love to see how a turned vegetarian would work out.

Great line--funny, yet profound.

Good point, too, about how we all cried over Bambi's mother yet we still eat meat without any guilt at all (well, not much anyway).  Maybe we can eat meat because it is not human so we don't really identify with the animal and its pain.  (Plus we go to grocery stores, not slaughterhouses, so it is all clean and tidy.)  Same with vampires.  They may be in a human body, but vamps (except Spike maybe) are NOT human.  They are demons, so they don't really identify with their prey either--hence no guilt.

I love the theory that the vampire has the same conscience as the human did before he/she was turned.  That would explain why Angelus was so brutal.  Why did Angel and his soul feel more guilt than Liam ever did with his?  I read a great fanfic once in which the writer said it was because the soul he was cursed to carry wasn't Liam's.  It was the soul of the innocent gypsy girl.   I always thought that was a perfect--and clever--answer!
 

Since vampires do not connect emotions other than pleasure from feeding and from the killing of their prey their former lives would not have any effect on any remorse they would feel.  I have to agree that if most of us had to go out to a slaughter house we would not eat meat with so little regard for the lives of our food source.  Most vegetarians do have a more sensitivity of the source of their food sources - I was a strict vegetarians for at least 30 years - now I have started eating meat again because I am trying to make life a little easier for my husband.  Once I started diving, I could never eat sea food again.

It's James and Elizabeth (I think anyway).

Is it weird that I find it ironic they used those two names? The coincidence of the actor that played Spike being James Marsters and Buffy's full name being Elizabeth might not be significant, still it's enough for me to notice it and snort. Anycase they are another couple Angel was responsible for ruining.


Actually, Buffy's full name is Buffy. 

Nowhere in canon is Buffy ever referred to as Elizabeth.  That is purely a fan fiction conceit.  Joss chose 'Buffy' precisely because it was a silly sounding girly name for the kind of character that usually gets killed in the first five minutes of a horror movie so he could turn that particular trope on its head.  Therefore, when people name her Elizabeth, (a name with true gravitas) they're robbing Buffy of the name that was chosen carefully to convey someone who should lack substance, but in her case doesn't.  She was designed to be a contradiction.  A general with with the name of a 'dumb cheerleader' (though in my experience most of them aren't either, but that's the stereotype.) There's something unexpected and delightful about someone who says "Hi, I'm Buffy, the vampire slayer."

Apologies for being a bit off topic.

Blue

(I'm not getting the quote button to work for me--never could figure it out!) Niori wrote:
All that said, I would really, really love to see how a turned vegetarian would work out.

Great line--funny, yet profound.

Good point, too, about how we all cried over Bambi's mother yet we still eat meat without any guilt at all (well, not much anyway).  Maybe we can eat meat because it is not human so we don't really identify with the animal and its pain.  (Plus we go to grocery stores, not slaughterhouses, so it is all clean and tidy.)  Same with vampires.  They may be in a human body, but vamps (except Spike maybe) are NOT human.  They are demons, so they don't really identify with their prey either--hence no guilt.

I love the theory that the vampire has the same conscience as the human did before he/she was turned.  That would explain why Angelus was so brutal.  Why did Angel and his soul feel more guilt than Liam ever did with his?  I read a great fanfic once in which the writer said it was because the soul he was cursed to carry wasn't Liam's.  It was the soul of the innocent gypsy girl.   I always thought that was a perfect--and clever--answer!
 

Hey Sensei, When you click on the "reply" button on a specific post, you don't have to do anything to make it a quote. Not that I've noticed, anyway. It automatically reposts the message you're answering as a quote. I think the quote button is for when you're leaving a new message and want to reference all the posts to which you're responding. Does that make sense?

Oops? Not sure who made the post about having trouble with the quote button.  Niori, maybe?  Anyway, answer stands. :)