BSV Forum - General - The Bloodshedpub

M.E.'s "hero"

Mar 19 2007 08:16 pm   #1FetchingMadScientist

On another thread, there is talk of the bathroom scene in "Seeing Red", and I got to thinking- the only reason that scene is even in that ep is because the writers needed to justify calling the other vamp a hero.  He had a soul.  Spike didn't.  So the writers had to shock him, and us as an audience, into believing he needed one.

My question is:  Do you think the writers intended Spike to be the hero all along, or was it just because we Spike fans, most of us anyway, refused to buy the line that he was totally evil?

"Never a fetching mad scientist about when you need one." -Spike
Mar 19 2007 08:20 pm   #2TwilightChild

  I think it was the fans.  The only reason the character survived past season 2 was because the fans loved him.  The only reason they considered him as a pairing with Buffy was because the fans began to love him more.  The only reason they did 'Seeing Red', was because they realized the fans loved him too much, and didn't sympathize with Buffy or her decision to end it at all. 
 

Mar 19 2007 09:11 pm   #3Maggie2

There's a lot in the early material of the show that makes me think that Spike was always meant to be the hero.  I know he wasn't meant to be a permanent character in B2, but it seems to me that his destiny was in the cards from B4 on.  Here's why I think that:

1. For Joss, the 'in' people are suspect.  From the opening episode he wants us to know that appearances are deceiving, a theme he underscores in "Lie to Me".  Cool people are jerks, Nerds can be heroes.  etc. etc.  The Scoobies' heroic status in the first few seasons was directly related to their nerdy/outsider status.  As they grew up and no longer had 'outsider' status they all become much greyer.  Spike is the ultimate outsider.  He was an outsider as a human; as a free-range vamp; and a big-time outsider post-chip -- fitting into neither the human nor the demon world.  That just marks him as big time hero material given Joss' preference for revealing that things that look 'black' (negative in some way) are really 'white' and vice versa.

2. Spike's first appearance in B4, Harsh Light of Day echoes The Chosen in a gazillion different ways.  He's looking for a gem that he can take into the light to do evil (in the Chosen he's given a gem that he takes into the dark to do good); Buffy takes the gem from him and gives it to Angel (in the Chosen Buffy takes the gem from Angel and gives it to Spike); when looking for the gem of Amara he first misidentifies it as an amulet that looks very much like the amulet in the Chosen; and the tunnels he dug to get the gem of Amara collapsed much like the town of Sunnydale collapsed.  Too many echoes to be coincidental.  The Chosen inverts Harsh Light of Day -- which suggests to me that Spike was always meant to invert -- from Big Bad to Big Hero.

3. By the time we get through five seasons of Angel it's not possible to think of Angel as a real hero.  With a soul he still manages to cross all of the moral lines in the Buffyverse: he allows the human lawyers to get eaten; he deliberately risks losing his soul by sleeping with Darla; he does the mega mind wipe, which Cordelia (mouthpiece of truth) calls a mind rape; he kills an innocent person in order to start his completely useless battle against the senior partners.  I could go on.  I don't think Angel is a villain.  He means well and he does try.  But he is not a hero.  And a lot of his problem is related to the fact that he's always treated as the Big Cheese (Champion of the Powers that Be) and is thus not self-aware of how dangerous he really is.  In other words, he's a total "in" guy -- which marks him out to be much darker than he appears according to the Joss code of deceptive appearances.  The very fact that they let Spike fight for his soul, whereas Angel was cursed with his creates an easy compare and contrast which Angel can't recover from.  The writers had to know what they were doing when they did that. 

I could go on.  What can I say?  I'm a pure Spikeophile. 

I read somewhere that Joss had contemplated trying to redeem a soulless Angel but then handed off that role to Spike when they decided to do the spin-off.  But I don't remember where I heard that, and so I don't know how much weight to give it.

Mar 19 2007 09:45 pm   #4LadyYashka

Maggie2,

I don't think I'm ever going to look at "Harsh Light of Day"/"Chosen" the same again. I never thought of the two episodes that way.

Also I think you’ve completely nailed Angel. A hero doesn't look at themselves as heroes. Usually when you see someone on t.v who’s done something heroic they'll say: "I'm not a hero. I only did what anybody else would've done." Angel has that "I'm a hero" mindset and unfortunately most of the people around him helped feed this. Spike, and to an extent Cordelia, were the only people to regularly confront Angel on this attitude.

 

Tomorrow may be hell, but today was a good writing day, and on the good writing days nothing else matters. — Neil Gaiman
Mar 19 2007 10:29 pm   #5Guest

Joss likes to call his "heroes" anti-heroes, because they're way more messed up and unsure about what they should do than the traditional Hero in tales. In Buffy's case, it was an excuse to make the character have more ugly, annoying traits than not...........which bothered me way more than Angel ever did, because she was supposed to know better.

The writers have said, very recently even, that once they decided to give Spike a soul, that he had to go through it a very different way from Angel.........and that they were all agreed that Spike couldn't be given credit for making good choices as a soulless being because it undermined Angel's soul. They had to give Spike a soul to catch up with the fans' admiration of the character, or Angel's credibility would have completely gone down the toilet as a "souled vampire". They really don't seem to get - purposefully or not - that Spike will never be 2nd best to most of the fans. They wrote themselves into a big problem, with Spike not staying evil.

Thing is, Maggie2 - you ask the writers, and they always believed that they could make Angel the top vamp. That Spike would be seen as close, but not quite as special, because the journey had been written before. They lived in a bubble while doing the show, and just wern't in touch with where the fandom was truly moving.

Caro Mio

Mar 19 2007 11:05 pm   #6maryperk

That was always something that confused me... why was getting a soul that was cursed on him because he ate someone 'better' than what Spike did?  To me, what Spike did made him a better person.  Maybe it's just me.  LOL

Mar 19 2007 11:11 pm   #7TwilightChild

  Well, Spike was simply an accident from the very beginning.  Not even the writers anticipated what he would do, or what he would become.  They kinda stumbled through him.  I don't think they actually intended the whole Harsh Light of Day/Chosen thing, unless they were looking back at that episode while writing chosen.  I think that was just another glorious accident, and the life that the character took all its own.
 

Mar 19 2007 11:19 pm   #8FetchingMadScientist

Since I started this thread, I figured I'd tell you what I think.

I think that Spike being the hero was a complete accident, and the Seeing Red scene was a rather desperate attempt to turn the audience away from Spike because, "How could he be good, if he didn't have a soul?"

The writers wrote themselves into a corner with the soul thing.  And, their attempt to resolve it- having Spike ask to have his soul returned- just gave Spike's fans more to cheer about, and solidified his standing as "champion."  It aslo made Angel look like a fool...oops.

"Never a fetching mad scientist about when you need one." -Spike
Mar 19 2007 11:21 pm   #9Eowyn315

I don't think Spike was meant to be a hero - at least not from the beginning. I'm not sure at what point they decided to make him a hero, but it definitely wasn't as early as Harsh Light of Day. While the parallels are totally cool - I did notice the jewelry connection because someone mentioned it in a fic, but I never thought about all the other parallels - I imagine if it was intentional, it was a case of the season 7 writers looking back and seeing how they could mirror that episode. It wasn't until after Harsh Light of Day that Spike even becomes a candidate for hero status - he's not really an outsider to vampires until the chip, and we don't see him as an outsider as a human until Fool For Love.

Although, on the other hand, to add to Maggie's list of arguments - Giles does suggest in season 4 that Spike might have a higher purpose fighting on the side of good, which Spike dismisses as piffle, of course, but that was really our first acknowledgement that Spike *could* be a hero.

I think what CM said - you ask the writers, and they always believed that they could make Angel the top vamp- is actually a really good indication of why they failed so miserably at that task, in the "actions speak louder than words" category. The writers tried to convince us Angel was a hero by TELLING us he was a hero - he and every other character made a huge deal of him being a champion, while what we were shown didn't match up with that. Which, honestly, I liked better, because if Angel were actually, well, an angel all the time, there'd be no conflict between characters and it'd be pretty damn boring. Just wish they hadn't tried to shove the "champion" thing down our throats while they were actually making him more three-dimensional than the cardboard hero cutout.

On the other hand, the writers told us over and over that Spike was evil and irredeemable - but his actions (with a few deliberate exceptions) kept showing us "hero." So finally they caved, and gave him a soul so he could be hero-y enough to fit what we already saw.

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Mar 19 2007 11:38 pm   #10Maggie2

I understand that the writers say lots of things about what they thought they were doing.  I figure either Joss had a bigger vision than he let the others know about.  Or the whole thing is a glorious accident -- better art than they intended.  Cause if they *intended* for Angel to be the "top vampire" they failed miserably and have zero moral sensibilities.  So either they are lucky idiots, or they just aren't totally candid in interviews about what they are up to.  I don't much care.  The text speaks for itself.

However that may be, there are a lot of "accidents" to consider.  Spike was never a normal vampire -- his care for Dru was shown in the very first episode.  In "Lie to Me", Spike is the only character who doesn't lie through his teeth (Angel, by contrast, does lie up a storm in that episode).  He did step to the plate to help stop Angelus in Becoming II.   And in B4, where I have a hard time thinking these things aren't intentional, we are shown Spike's softer side in Something Blue (wanting to help Giles' blindness); as Eowyn just pointed out there's Giles' mention of Spikes' possible destiny; they deliberately used 'hero' music when Spike escaped from the Initiative; in the stupid sex-frat-house episode Spike's first impulse is to take a heroic stance (before he remembers that he's a bad guy); they are already showing how Spike's quasi-Scoobie status costs him big time with the demon community; etc. etc.  He's a hero-to-be hiding in plain sight.  And the minute they plotted him as a love interest for Buffy there was no way they weren't thinking redemption for him.  Let me know if anyone wants to say that Spike's destiny wasn't in the cards from B5 on... cause there's MUCH to be said to the contrary on that score!

Mar 19 2007 11:40 pm   #11GoldenBuffy

tc, you had me on unplaned. but he wasn't even  when dru turn him, darla and angelus didn't want him. i read some place that joss said he had planed on keeping spike, so i don't know. did anyone else ever read that he also said he knew buffy would only be 7 seasons and that by s4 he has s7 plotted out?

in destiny spike did point out that he was better than angel cause he fought for his and angel was cursed. when the wrote angel i don't think they planed him well. i mean me perrsonally never would accept a champion who was cursed with a soul that could fly out the window at any time.

And in the air the fireflies
Our only light in paradise
We'll show the world they were wrong
And teach them all to sing along
Mar 19 2007 11:48 pm   #12Scarlet Ibis

I'll answer your question first just in case no one reads my long explanation- no, they hadn't intended for Spike to be the hero all along, it just turned out being that way when you look at the facts of all of the seasons.  They finally admit to him being the actual champion as opposed to Angel in s5 in various eps, and Angel realizes it too.

Actually, s5 of Angel leads me to believe that it was really Spike who was meant to be the Champion all along.  In "Destiny" in Spike's speech to Angel in what makes them different, and later in the ep, Angel talking to Wesley that even though the cup was a farce, that perhaps Spike is the one who deserved it more.  In "The Girl In Question," we learn in comparison that Spike stopped more apocalypses, and that Angel was the cause of some.  I think Angel realized that he wasn't the vamp meant to Shanshu, so the whole Black Thorn thing was like a big F U to the PTB for screwing him around, leading him to believe he was something he wasn't, and signing away the Shanshu prophecy didn't mean anything, since it wasn't meant for him anyway.

Also, even when Spike was evil, he was the hero to the demon world in a sense- excluding the fact that he ruined St. Vigeous and killed the Annointed one, by being the only demon mentioned to kill two Slayers and live to tell the tale.  Then his journey continues where he somewhat doesn't have a choice but to fight on the side of good, only really being able to kill demons (well, he could have left bombs and burned down houses and what not, but that wasn't Spike's style- he's a fighter), he marches on- and essentially becomes better than any other character on the hero scale from either show.  He wasn't told that he was supposed to be a hero or a champion- he didn't have some duty he thought he needed to fulfill.  He wasn't driven by atonement either (pre Buffy's ressurection), but chose to do what was right, and managed to keep the attitude and snark.

I heard Joss say that in addition to being purposely made the inherent opposite of Angel, Spike was meant to be a disposable character, so they built him up to be "the ultimate cool," the bad guy who you love and want to win.  They were beyond successful obviously, and kept him on because of it.  So Joss explained that because he was this "ultimate cool," the writers spent the next several years tearing him down, consequently, giving him all of these amazing layers that made us love him more. I don't think there is a way to make Spike look bad.  Hell, I loved him when he was "evil," and I use that term lightly.

 

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Mar 19 2007 11:59 pm   #13GoldenBuffy

You know I never looked at the final battle as in F U to the PTB. Good point. And it makes since too.

And in the air the fireflies
Our only light in paradise
We'll show the world they were wrong
And teach them all to sing along
Mar 20 2007 12:00 am   #14Eowyn315

GB - I haven't heard that Joss planned on keeping Spike. From what I've read, Spike was meant to die in What's My Line, and a newly strengthened Dru would emerge as the main villain, with the unsouled Angelus. But they loved James (and the fans loved Spike) so much that they kept him around. Then I think he was supposed to be finished after season 2, but again, they liked him so much they thought up a way to bring him back for one ep in season 3, and during that ep they realized how well he worked with the other characters that they made him a regular for season 4.

It wouldn't surprise me that Joss plotted out season 7 that early - except that they didn't know the show would go on that long. Didn't they originally plan out season 5 as the last season? By the time they made The Gift, they knew that wasn't the case, but it still has a "series finale" feel to it. I also thought (and this may or may not be true) that they didn't know season 7 would be the end until they'd already started it. I've heard that SMG always intended to leave after 7 seasons, but I have the idea in my head that they had to make the First into a bigger thing than they intended to have a grand scale series finale - not sure where that idea came from. Maybe I'm thinking of Angel season 5.

And Maggie - I'm almost tempted to disagree with you, just to hear your season 5 argument! But I do think that by season 5 they had him on the track to goodness - it just didn't progress quite as planned because of James playing up the "soulfulness" in seasons 5 and 6 and fans not accepting him as evil. I think he got too good too fast for the writers, and they had to backtrack, make him seem evil and then get him his soul.

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Mar 20 2007 12:05 am   #15Maggie2

I suppose this is my bottom line: whatever the writers intended, one can read all 7 seasons *as if* the writers had always intended for Spike to turn out to be the hero.  There are lots of details that fit into that reading -- and I find it a very rich reading.  That's why I love BTVS.  So whether they planned it or not, I'd say that's what they actually did.

Another B4 nugget:  the lyrics to Wind Beneath My Wings (think of it as playing over the hellmouth scene in The Chosen):

It must have been cold there in my shadow,
to never have sunlight on your face.
You were content to let me shine, that's your way,
you always walked a step behind.

So I was the one with all the glory,
while you were the one with all the strength.
A beautiful face without a name -- for so long,
a beautiful smile to hide the pain.

CHORUS:
Did you ever know that you're my hero,
and ev'rything I would like to be?
I can fly higher than an eagle,
'cause you are the wind beneath my wings.

It might have appeared to go unnoticed,
but I've got it all here in my heart.
I want you to know I know the truth, of course I know it,
I would be nothing with out you.

(CHORUS)

Fly, fly, fly away,
you let me fly so high.
Oh, fly, fly,
so high against the sky, so high I almost touch the sky.
Thank you, thank you, thank God for you,
the wind beneath my wings.

Mar 20 2007 12:10 am   #16Scarlet Ibis

Damn it Maggie- that made me all... I dunno.  That's the damn song Buffy wanted sung at her and Spike's wedding, and it's *so* entirely true!

Oh, and um, SMG was contracted for seven seasons, but they made it seem like a series finale for s5 cause they were leaving the network, and Joss said it felt like an "ending" of sorts, and to go out that way.  And to be "reborn" on UPN, along with Buffy.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Mar 20 2007 12:14 am   #17Eowyn315

Gah! Maggie! You're freakin' me out! (but in a good way!) I love this kind of stuff - when it's done intentionally it really shows that the writers respect an audience who can think, and when it's not intentional, it's just kinda cool. That's why I was so psyched to try to find all the Dawn references from the earlier seasons, and to figure out all the symbolism in Restless. But, honestly, the stuff you're coming up with is way better than that.

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Mar 20 2007 12:19 am   #18Scarlet Ibis

Oh- there's a Dawn ref in s3 when Buffy has that dream with Faith, something about getting the room ready for Miss Muppet... Anyway, who cares about Dawn?  What are some more references to that "wacky neighbor" Spike, huh?

And as for Angel killing an innocent intentionally when he killed Drogyn, that was an accident- he didn't have a choice.  He was captured, and they were going to kill him anyway, and kill them both had he not killed him.  He attacked sent that demon to attack Drogyn, sure, because  he needed him to believe he was evil, and everyone has to believe Drogyn because he tells no lies and so forth.  Him getting offed for real was a mistake- he knew Drogyn would survive the demon he sent after him, but he didn't know Hamilton would find Spike's place, incapacitate Illyria, and take Drogyn with him to the Circle of the Black Thorn.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Mar 20 2007 12:24 am   #19LadyYashka

Unless Angel wanted everyone to think it was an accident. Wouldn't Wolfram and Hart know where Spike lived? They knew everything else.

Sorry, I couldn't resist. :P

Tomorrow may be hell, but today was a good writing day, and on the good writing days nothing else matters. — Neil Gaiman
Mar 20 2007 12:28 am   #20Maggie2

I stand corrected, but I'm not convinced it helps Angel's case much.  He recklessly endangered the guy.  And on at least some moral views, being the actor in killing Drogan is worse than letting yourself be killed.  In any case, all of this was done for a very dubious purpose.  The battle waged had the 'noble' aim of stopping the world from going on the way it usually does (lots of evil is done in the name of trying to achieve a utopia that is out of reach for us mere mortals); and Angel himself says the battle will have no lasting good effect; and he knows it will provoke a counter-attack by the senior partners that could well kill lots of innocent bystanders.  You don't lead good people into a battle to the death on grounds like that.  Unless you are a despairing would-be-hero who wants to go out at least looking like a hero (having realized that he really isn't one).  And I forgot to mention him ordering the hit on Lindsey -- which is a no, no given that he's human.  (Buffy couldn't even take out Warren.)  Like I said -- I don't add it up and get villain.  But I think it does add up to a big fat "not a hero" verdict.  (And Angel's dubiousness as a hero, even when souled also goes all the way back to B1).

Mar 20 2007 12:28 am   #21Scarlet Ibis

Well, if they did know where Spike lived... nah, I don't think "Angel's Avengers" were aware of that fact- otherwise, why make their war plans there?  And, Angel needed one person from his team dead in order to get into the Black Thorn- so he took credit for Fred's death, consequently giving him more credit cause for a minute there, it looked as if Illyria was going to raise her army, which would be a technical plus for "The wolf, the ram and the heart," maybe.  Or not, cause Illyria used to be above them... Whatever, Angel already had his "kill one of the good guys" quota filled.  So there- in yo face, man!  J/k...

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Mar 20 2007 12:32 am   #22Scarlet Ibis

Oh not saying Angel's a hero- I'm saying that he finally realised in his s5 that he in fact was not one.  As for him "mind raping" his friends, he only did it to save his son, so I can't fault him for that.  Putting that hit on Lindsay, well, was bad, but none of his other members vetoed the idea, including Spike.  I just wish they explained why... I didn't get the purpose.  I know Joss likes a high death count of main or semi main characters, but it was kinda senseless to have Lorne shoot him.

And Drogyn would have been fine had Hamilton not captured him- he was busy playing Dreamcast with Illyria, looking not so wounded.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Mar 20 2007 12:45 am   #23LadyYashka

::cracks knuckles:: Alright were to begin...

War plans at Spike's place: Angel could have easily wanted the team to believe it was the only place they could hold their meetings, thus convincing them it was safe from Wolfram and Hart, when in fact the Senior Partners already knew about it. Angel did have a few "secret" meetings with Hamilton. Whose to say he told the others everything that went on? He's lied before.

Illyeria I believe was an accident I think Angel took advantage of. I don't see Wolfram and Hart wanting to release a being older and stronger than them.

As for Lindsay, whose to say Angel told the others he wanted him killed? I'd have to got back and watch that part but I think he only talked to Lorne about it.

So there! :P

Tomorrow may be hell, but today was a good writing day, and on the good writing days nothing else matters. — Neil Gaiman
Mar 20 2007 12:51 am   #24Scarlet Ibis

Nope, the whole gang was there when Lorne gave his "after this, I'm out," speech.  And why set up his own people (in regards to having secret meetings with Hamilton) when he stood by their side at the end, and the fact that he killed Hamilton... The Senior Partners were after Angel too.  He should've drained the bastard (Hamilton) though, with his special "old ones" blood or whatever- could've been stronger for the alley fight... Dammit, why won't they make that movie?!

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Mar 20 2007 01:00 am   #25LadyYashka

I'll take your word for it for now. Though I do have season five of Angel and can go back and watch those finale episodes. :P

Maybe Angel was trying to eleminate the compition. He could have made another deal with Wolfram and Hart without telling anybody. As for Hamilton well the Senior Partner's contracts extend beyond death so he could still be around.

Tomorrow may be hell, but today was a good writing day, and on the good writing days nothing else matters. — Neil Gaiman
Mar 20 2007 01:09 am   #26Guest

I forgot to add that Spike was given the soul so Buffy would have her excuse to allow herself to love him. The writers were firm on not having their "hero" accept a relationship with a soulless being. Which is pretty damn elitist, if you ask me. Again, they didn't truly realize that the *audience* didn't care if Spike had a soul for Buffy! I really was amazed to see them so clueless about it.

And Joss wrote "Chosen", so any parallels, throw backs, etc. I'm sure were intentional.

CM

Mar 20 2007 01:11 am   #27Guest

Dammit, why won't they make that movie?!

Because, apparently, it's better in comic book format.

Mar 20 2007 01:11 am   #28Guest

Angel knew Lindsey would betray them. There's a mention of that around the assassination order. And I think it would have set Lorne into an interesting place for Season 6, if it had happened.

Maybe now that they've greenlit Season 6 comics by Joss, we'll get more answers.

CM

Mar 20 2007 01:16 am   #29Scarlet Ibis

Comics books are okay, but who *doesn't* wanna see Spike on the big screen? I wanted an Angel s6, but the RL PTB's are stupid bastards, so they cheated me two times :(

Oh yes, LadyY- I have those DVDs too ;)  I just need s1-3 for Angel.

And Spike didn't need a soul to love Buffy unconditionally, why should he need one for her to love him in general?  Oh right- cause she's all "superior" and inferior at the same time and stuff.  Can't forget that...oh and the fact that it makes the sense that's not.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Mar 20 2007 01:35 am   #30Immortal Beloved

I don't see Spike as a pure hero, and I don't think of him as an anti-hero.  I see Spike as an accidental hero, by the accord of both the writers and the character himself.  The writers didn't start out writing Spike as a hero.  He came in with Drusilla as the villain de la saison in BtVS season 2, trying to kill Buffy and inciting mayhem all over Sunnydale.  That was his original purpose.  Maybe the writers just needed a Big Bad to shore up some trouble until they could write in Buffy and Angel boinking to get him to loose his fickle little soul.  In a back-by-popular-demand move, they didn't kill Spike off (thank GOD) with the organ, but incapacitated him so that Angelus (don't even get me started on how Angel and Angelus are not two separate vamps) could reek a little havoc of his own, namely opening the portal to hell with Acathla.

Here's where the accident occurs.  The writers decided that Buffy needed a little help to defeat Angelus.  Willow hadn't yet developed her witchy powers, Xander was completely ineffectual, Kenda was dead, and Giles was being tortured.  Enter Spike.  He already has the motivation to hurt Angelus: Angelus comes back after nearly 100 years and dethrones Spike as the head rooster, his girlfriend has been screwing Angelus right under his nose, and he's been hiding the fact that he's no longer paralyzed.  He's the perfect little surprise for Angelus, so they wrote in a truce between Buffy and Spike.

What is more surprising is that Spike's seemingly simple act of helping Buffy to defeat Angelus so that he and Drusilla and get the hell out of Dodge, seems to be the character's first step onto the path of good.  Spike's motivations were completely self-serving, and he didn't intend to do anything but to steal Drusilla back as his.  But that act is what starts Spike's life as the Big Bad to crumble.  He's supposed to be the Slayer of Slayers, not the Slayer's little helper.  Drusilla leaves Spike because he's not evil enough for her anymore, he helped he Slayer instead of killing him, and Drusilla suspects that he's in love with Little Miss Sunshine.  Drusilla sired Spike.  She brought him over to the dark side.  Because Spike made that truce with Buffy, the dark side rejects him.  

Drusillas's rejection of Spike leads to his return to Sunnydale, his being capture by the Initiative, getting the chip implanted in his brain, his helping out the Scoobies, his realizing that he's in love with Buffy, etc., etc., etc.  Everything snowballs until eventually he wins a soul and saves the world.  The writers probably intended Spike's helping Buffy more as plot development than character development, but that's not how it turned out.  I think that they latched onto the idea and ran with it once they realized how the character had progressed.  William the Bloody, Slayer of Slayers, aligns himself with his mortal enemy, and sets himself reluctantly, accidentally, onto the hero's path.

Give me Spuffy, or give me death.
Mar 20 2007 01:55 am   #31Maggie2

IB -- I agree with this, as far as it goes.  But I think the accidental quality of Spike's becoming a hero is the point.  The thing that really hurts the supposed heroes is that they think they are heroes, become self-righteous and unaware of their own failings.  This is especially so in the case of Angel -- but it's quite visible in all of the Scoobies.  Spike doesn't have a master plan to be a hero.  He emphatically doesn't posture as a hero.  He just follows his heart, damn the extremely painful consequences.  In other words, he gives himself over to life in all its fullness -- no holding back.  And that leads him to become the purest hero in the verse.  Plenty of flaws, I agree.  But it's his honest embrace of everything that ultimately steers him in the right direction.  And there's a quality to him that prevents backtracking.  He might have said yes to Drusilla the first time around -- sensing a chance to become something more than he was.  But he wasn't going to go *back* to Drusilla once he had a taste of the real deal (i.e. Buffy).  Spike just keeps trading up in his idea of what he really wants. 

Angel, by contrast, doesn't do anything until the powers that be tap him on the shoulder and tell him he's a hero.  (Actually, the same is true of Buffy).  Neither of them quite live up to it -- largely because it's not a product of their internal response to life (though Buffy does better with it than does Angel). 

And I still say it's in keeping with the basic theme of the show -- that appearances are deceiving.  Of course the guy who's wouldn't want to be called a hero is the one who actually is the hero. 

Mar 20 2007 04:21 am   #32Scarlet Ibis

I said something similar to this earlier in this thread, but yea- Spike is the best hero because he had no intentions of doing so in the first place.  We can all agree that the "heroes" of both verses F-ed in some shape or form, but Spike wasn't required to do anything but be evil, and made the greatest transition without prompting.  That's what makes a real hero- not being told to do it, but just doing it, regardless of why you were motivated to do it.  And Spike started the unintentional path of "good" before his truce with Buffy- he killed the "Annoying One," and regardless of what Drusilla did, he still didn't think Acathla was a good idea- he didn't want the world to end.  That's a pretty damn good start in the check mark column for "goodness"

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Mar 20 2007 07:01 am   #33Guest

2 bits from fanfictions about heroes that I like

The Father had reacted to the news of his prophesied deeds with humility and grace, accepting his burdens because he wished to help make their world-which was not yet his own-safe. It was these characteristics that were the true marks of a Champion in Draco’s mind, unlike those who boasted and bragged of their deeds, holding themselves high above those they claimed to protect.

from Lady Yashka's For Whom the Bells Tolls (here on the bloodshedverse)

Who's the better man... the one that says 'oh yeah, right, right away I'll do that job, consider it done', says 'I'll get right on it'- but runs off.  Him...or the sod who complains, and complains and complains all the way out to the field, complains all the way through the work complains all day but still, at the end--the apples are in and it's pork chops and applesauce for all.  So, you tell me--who's the one I want on my team?

from Lizerrrbeathan's Adieu A Dew I Do

http://www.lizerrrbeathan.com/AdieuADewIDo.html

They both fit Spike . He went into being a hero all the while saying he was evil. Andunlike others , he never pretended that he didn't do the wrong thngs he did.

Mar 20 2007 12:10 pm   #34spikes_wish

This may be going off on a different thread, but reading some of the stuff other people have written, it just made me want to rant a little. Was just reading what Scarlet Ibis said-

"And Spike didn't need a soul to love Buffy unconditionally, why should he need one for her to love him in general?"

I don't think the soul had anything to do with Buffy being unable to love Spike. I think the reason Buffy couldn't love Spike was because she couldn't fall in love whilst hating herself, which she did throughout S6 (and quite rightly so IMO). Having a sul was obviously important to Buffy, it's what seperated her from the vampires she killed. The possibility that Buffy herself felt as she was missing her own soul in season six(see buffy beating up spike in Dead Things), in a way made souls even more important to her. But if Spike had had his soul in S6 Buffy still wouldnt have been able to love him. if that makes sense to anyone, i applaud you.

I think the soul was merely a device to progress the character- I read somewhere that James said in one of his interviews around S5, that as nice as it would be for Buffy and Spike to live happily ever after, Spike had a ways to go. And although Buffy probably did recognise how much Spike changes for the better, the character was doing it all for "the love of a woman who could never love him back" (Tara, in Crush on Quasimodo and Esmerelda)

If Buffy did ever fall for Spike pre-soul, there would always be the nagging question of what if the chip stopped working? and then they broke up and maybe Spike starts killing again, (such as in Crush- Buffy rejects Spike, and he drinks the blood of that girl, even though he had just said to Buffy that he had changed) and she has to kill him. there was always a chance that he could start killing again, in her eyes anyway.

I think that Spike's soul, whilst not strictly necessary, was just joss placing another paving stone on Spike's road to redemption (sound familiar?), and the whole rape thing was merely a plot device. they had to push Spike hard enough to realise that he wasn't as good a person/vampire as he thought he was. And the fact that he fought for his soul so he could be punished for the act properly says to me that Joss always knew who the real vampiric hero was. So hah boo sucks to Angel.

Mar 20 2007 08:49 pm   #35Guest

Sorry, but there is no way in hell that Angel can be considerd a hero after the things he has done with a soul.  Not having a choice is no excuse for killing a champion in cold blood.  There are always more then one choices, the basic fact was that he chose in that moment that Droghyn was an accaptebel loss, so he drained him and snapped his neck.

He could have fought his way out while saving Drogyhn, but his plan,scheme was more important.  As is killing Lindsey which to my knowledge only Lorne knew about.  The other guys couldn't believe that Angel wanted Lindsey's help with their plan.  They didn't say "Good thing that you kill him afterwards."

This suicide mission was Angel's plan, you can see the disgust,anger that Spike has when he finds out that Angel killed Droghyn.  His emotions get the best of him.

I don't really want a season6 Angel unless they continue with Spike-centered comics(canon, and co-written by Joss).  I want him to have his own journey, and not being stuck as Angel's sidekick.

Mar 20 2007 10:00 pm   #36DreamsofSpike

I don't know...personally I started being much more interested in Angel as a character, the more he came face to face with his own darkness in the later seasons of Angel. It seemed to me that it was then that Joss and Company made him more of a genuine character, not just a mysterious fantasy for a teenage Buffy to fall unrealistically in love with :P

And I agree that Angel wasn't really what you would call a true "hero". For example, a true hero would have died himself trying to get himself and his friend out of there, rather than to kill Drogyn to further his plan like Angel did. But the thing that makes Angel who he is, and interesting, is the fact that then and other times, he really thought he was doing the right thing...for the "greater good", though his methods of getting there often were flawed, as he was -- again, making him a better character to watch.

The thing that makes Spike heroic even when he was a villain, is that non-broody, no-need-to-ponder-it-out-for-seventeen-hours, go-with-your-gut sort of thing. Angel could be sitting back and thinking through all the potential consequences for the people involved and his own guilt-racked soul, making plans,while Spike would be jumping into the fray, heedless to the risk to himself, if it's what he felt was right *in that moment*.

To me that's part of what makes the difference -- the fact that Spike was an *act-er*, as opposed to a thinker. He just jumped in and did whatever he felt the impulse to do, whether for good or for evil -- and that sort of reckless abandon has a sort of a heroic notion to it, for me :)

Like, a thinker might stand on the sidewalk and think, "Oh, no, that building's on fire and I can hear a baby inside! Let's see, how far away are those sirens, and is it even possible to get to the baby in time, and what might happen if I *don't* get to the baby in time and then they have to worry about rescuing me *and* the baby and what if we *both* die and maybe I should just leave it to the experts or maybe I should go in..."

And about the time they get to that point in their brood-process, Spike's already in and out with the bloody baby in his arms :P

lol

now I know that was a bit of a rambling, probably nonsensical comment, but it's my opinion on the whole thing... :P