BSV Forum - General - The Bloodshedpub

Maybe Spike Shouldn't have Pushed

Jun 29 2007 11:35 am   #1ZoeGrace

I've been thinking about how hard Spike pushed Buffy in season 6 to admit things about herself.  Her darkness, her similarity to him, how right they were together...

It was frustrating to him to have her constantly deny these things he had evidence of right in front of his face.  How could she be so purposefully obtuse about who she was and what she needed?  And it was hurtful to him to see her so openly deny things he witnessed and felt, because she was constantly denying him.

But I wonder...if he hadn't pushed, what would have happened?  Sometimes you can tell someone a billion times who they are, but they have to figure it out for themselves. The lightbulb won't go off if you push.  And if you keep pushing the lightbulb is even less likely to go off because for some reason they are uncomfortable facing that reality about themselves.  They can't discover and face it though if they are using up all their energy being defensive.

So I kind of think...that if Spike hadn't pushed her, and insisted she was dark and belonged with him, maybe she would have figured it out on her own.  Buffy seems to me like the type of person who has to think things are her idea.  When someone beats her to the punch she goes straight to denial.

What do you think?  If Spike hadn't pushed would she have seen the truth about who she was?  I'm not saying everything Spike ever said was right, but she IS dark, she does have that nature that should be nourished.  And she and Spike obviously were right together.  But what if he hadn't said it out loud?  Would she have been more likely to work it out on her own?

Jun 29 2007 02:33 pm   #2Scarlet Ibis

Well, in the beginning of s5 we learn of Buffy/the Slayer's dark side, so she already knew it was there... I'm thinking that pretty much anything Spike said would be put in the "wrong" category in Buffy's mind.  And Spike only says that once in "Life Serial," and I'm not sure she's paying all that much attention cause she's kinda drunk, and doesn't mention it again until "Dead Things."  And Buffy was already treating him like crap way before then, what with her "I'll never touch you again," being with you is "perverse and degrading," and so forth.  She was already vehemently against the idea of them (for retarded reasons in my opinion), and had no problems showing him that.  Buffy's main objective of s6 was to deny Spike in any way possible unless it was about sex.

But then again, her very treatment of him (eventually) was darker than most of the things she'd done previously.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jun 29 2007 09:14 pm   #3ZoeGrace

but she LIKED that it was perverse and degrading.  And Spike tried to tell her she did several times, that she liked it rough, but she would never admit it.  Him saying it just pushed her away further.  She liked what he did to her but she would never admit it because he told her she liked it.

As for the dark side with the first slayer in season five.  I don't think any of that had time to register with her because it was all: "death is your gift" that's like all she got out of that exchange.  The point isn't Spike couldn't tell her, NO ONE could tell her. She's got to figure it out on her own and make peace with it on her own.

So Spike's continual pushing on the issue, IMO wasn't helping anything.

Jun 29 2007 09:34 pm   #4Scarlet Ibis

I'm not saying she didn't like it- it's clear she does cause she continously goes back for more, or doesn't stop his advances when he comes to her.  She wants a way out- even if he hadn't said it (and I don't think he said it all the time- like three times tops), she thought it was bad, and if she wasn't so ashamed by the relationship, she would've been begging one of her friends to tell her its wrong to act in such a way (like she eventually begs Tara to tell her she's wrong, she came back wrong, whatever). 

IMO, she knew it (about her dark side, about her and Spike making actual sense together, etc.), but was in denial (like she was with most things).

I think part of it, her rejection of her dark side, may have stemmed from s3 baggage with Faith, amplified by tasting Drac's blood, thinking she came back wrong,and having a relationship with "a soulless fiend" being the final nail in the coffin.  So if he hadn't mentioned it... I don't think it would've made a difference.  At least, not a significant one.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jun 29 2007 09:37 pm   #5ZoeGrace

heh okay.  I think it would have made some difference, it just would have taken awhile.  I know him pushing her (and I felt like that pushing was constant, like every conversation they had after they slept together was all: "you like this, you belong in the dark with me, you know i get your motor revving, blah blah blah, etc. etc.) didn't help anything.

She may have always remained denial Buffy, but I Think there is at least a small chance she wouldn't have been if he'd just backed off and stopped pushing her.  But I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that point.  I asked for opinions and that means I have to accept them even when they don't agree with me.

Jun 29 2007 10:36 pm   #6Guest

I seriously doubt he brought that up every time...Spike's smarter than that. That's a bit of an excessive thought. 

I agree with Scarlet that it was a build up of dark side fear. I just watched season 2, and I think Buffy's fear of what she was capable of started when she thought she killed Ted. He turned out not to be human, after all, but that even really shook her. Then, deja vu with Faith, and all the other stuff comes later.......and, once she came back from running away after season 2, her judgment was no longer trusted like it had been, so she didn't trust her *internal* moral compass anymore. I found it very interesting that the trust wasn't broken with her friends until she disappeared for 3 months, at least not with Willow and Giles.

But yeah, in typical Buffy fashion, she was afraid of everything she couldn't control. EVERYthing, including herself, so it wouldn't matter what Spike said in Season 6. He could have painted himself pink and purple polka dots and bounced on his head, and she would have done whatever she wanted to anyway. He could have had an angel come down and put a blessing on him for all to see, and she would have done what she wanted anyway. That's what Buffy does.........she drags her mind (and feet) along in the mud because she's afraid of life and truth.

CM

Jun 29 2007 10:42 pm   #7chlarkspuffy

This narrow-minded quality that Buffy possesses is exactly what turned me off the series for a long time. Had I not come back to the show and taken a new liking to Spike, I don't know that I would have suffered through the rest of the series. I keep reminding myself that she's young and has been through a lot of shit, but it still grates on my nerves that emotionally she is such a wimp. Her 'heroic' acts leave me less impressed because emotionally she is not very strong. In the beginning it was easy enough to empathise and feel for her (e.g. when she killed Angel), but as the seasons passed, I grew less tolerant of her character's issues.

"If there's anything more important than my ego around, I want it caught and shot now."

- Zaphod Beeblebrox
Jun 29 2007 11:53 pm   #8ZoeGrace

not to be really annoying here, but name me ONE episode once they'd started sleeping together where he didn't give her some kind of "we belong together, you like this, you belong in the dark with me, I get your motor revving, blah blah blah" kind of thing. 

he was always telling her what she liked and what she didn't like, and what her nature was.  I can't think of one episode from Smashed onward where this didn't happen.

Jun 30 2007 12:05 am   #9chlarkspuffy

I can't think of a single episode. Then again, there weren't that many of them and the ones that were, I think, were constructed purposely to demonstrate Buffy's dark side.

"If there's anything more important than my ego around, I want it caught and shot now."

- Zaphod Beeblebrox
Jun 30 2007 12:11 am   #10FetchingMadScientist

Okay, Zoe, there is one episode where Spike kicks Buffy out of his bed.  It's called "Gone."  He realizes that the only reason Buffy is with him is because she wants to be "Free of Life" otherwise known as dead- and then she mopes, and is rather shocked that he would actually have the guts to kick her out, however briefly.

"Never a fetching mad scientist about when you need one." -Spike
Jun 30 2007 12:27 am   #11Scarlet Ibis

Another would be "Doublemeat Palace" when he's the only *sane* one to say "hey Buffy- you're *better* than this.*  Of all of the friggin jobs on the planet, not to mention her super strength, that was the best she could do?  (not that there's anything wrong with that- but she was more qualified than that, and since she wasn't in school, could've done something else full time) I'm sorry, but I agree with Spike- she enjoyed the pain, and enjoyed being the martyr. And he also doesn't say it in "Older and Far Away," and even "Wrecked."  The only thing he says in that last ep was "I may be dirt, Slayer, but your'e the one who likes to roll in it," which isn't saying she belongs there, but just that she likes it (which she does).  Oh, and he doesn't say it in "As You Were," "Hells Bells" and "Entropy." either.  Even in "Seeing Red," he tries to convince her to admit she loves him, but not that she's dark, bad, wrong or belongs with him.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jun 30 2007 01:33 am   #12ZoeGrace

Fair enough on "Gone"  I maintain though that it's only because they couldn't find a way to work it into the script.   Although...he IS still trying to psycho analyze her with the: "only reason you're here is that you're not"  and "you don't seem too put off by it."

Doublemeat Palace:  SPIKE: Some demons love 'em. The way they vibrate makes the skin twitch. That the kinda demon you are, luv?

SPIKE: Oh. I see. That why you took this job? Prove something to yourself? A normal job for a normal girl? (shakes his head) Good way to drive yourself crazy, that is.

You're right about "older and far away."

(Yes, like a psycho I"m scanning all the transcripts.  Boy it would sure be nice if I had a life lol)

"Wrecked": SPIKE: I'm just sayin' ... vampires get you hot.

SPIKE: (walks closer to her) You can act as high and mighty as you like ... but I know where you live now, Slayer. (softly) I've tasted it.

SPIKE: (scoffs) No, it's your calling. Gave me a run for my money, Slayer.

"As you were": (This said in front of Buffy, so IMO it counts): 

SPIKE: ...but I've gotta wager this little tableau must sting a bit, eh? Me and your former? Must kill. What can I say? Girl just needs a little monster in her man.

True on "Hell's Bells"

True on "Entropy" also.  But to be fair, in both of those eps they were "broken up" there was no relationship or sex going on so they aren't really interacting that much.  

"seeing red":

SPIKE: Because you love me.

BUFFY: (annoyed) No. I don't.
SPIKE: Why do you keep lying to yourself?

SPIKE: (pacing) I know you feel like I do. You don't have to hide it anymore.


I probably am oversimplifying a little bit, I haven't seen season 6 in awhile, but to me...the thing that stood out in my mind and what the entire season six buffy/spike thing boiled down to was:

SPIKE: You're darker than you let on and you like it rough.

BUFFY: Ew gross, Spike.  Just pretend you're Tom Selleck.  (Ok I made up the Tom Selleck part)

Jun 30 2007 04:48 am   #13GoldenBuffy

lol, tom selleck.

And in the air the fireflies
Our only light in paradise
We'll show the world they were wrong
And teach them all to sing along
Jun 30 2007 05:27 am   #14ZoeGrace

hehe I was really hoping that would overcome the annoying tiresomeness of me not giving up an argument.

Jun 30 2007 06:20 am   #15Scarlet Ibis

Well, I don't see calling her "normal" is equivalent to saying she's dark or what have you.  I just see it as "not average," and really, there's nothing wrong with that. And saying that she feels like he does, he meant feelings wise- that she loved him just like he loved her- not at all about being dark or liking it rough.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jun 30 2007 08:10 am   #16Guest

It does oversimplify to say he's only pushing about "the dark and the wrong". Spike doesn't push all the time, for one thing, and two, he speaks TRUTH. And no one was telling Buffy truth for a long, long time. He told her because he cared. That puts him in the plus column for me. Buffy fails with dealing with truth time and time again....she's the one that lacked responsibility. God, that martyr act got SO old.

CM

Jun 30 2007 09:45 am   #17ZoeGrace

I guess it's all in interpretation scarlet.  i just saw it differently.

CM I'm not saying he was always pushing her into the dark, that's not my point, "darkness" isn't necessarily a bad quality.  Nor am I saying Spike is bad or wrong for doing it.  Only that...Buffy clearly doesn't respond to it.  It would have been better for him to hang back and stop trying to tell her what she thinks and feels and let her come to it on her own if she ever did.

Jun 30 2007 05:26 pm   #18Scarlet Ibis

I dunno, Zoe.  I kinda agree that maybe he should've let her decide for herself, but on the other hand, particularly in s6, Buffy yearned for guidance of some kind.  I don't get why, but she did.  And the guidance she did get, she either didn't care for it (from Spike), or it was the wrong, self righteous kind (from Xander and Riley).  It'd have been great if she could've actually thought for herself... *sigh* Her decision making skills sucked up and down that entire season.

I think she really did need Giles that season, and he would've had a more level headed response to the whole Spike thing.  He saw Spike change, and (I think) accepted it in s6.  S7 is a whole other can of worms, but in s6, I think he, Tara and Dawn would've been accepting of their relationship, had they known about it, and not shamed her to feeling all bad about it (like she assumed they would).

And furthermore, why was she so hellbent on putting Spike in this neat little box of how he was when they first met, or even during s4 or early s5?  Evil, soulless things don't endure torture to spare someone else pain. Evil, soulless things don't give a damn.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jun 30 2007 05:43 pm   #19Guest

She stopped thinking for herself, mostly, after she came back from running away. It was all the guilt tripping in Season 3 that really started that cycle, and it only got worse.

Jun 30 2007 08:54 pm   #20ZoeGrace

True Scarlet, she probably did need guidance, she just wasn't going to accept it from Spike, cause she's stupid.  Why do you think Giles would have accepted them together in season six?  I think Tara would have been in their corner.  Tara could have brought willow over, Anya would have been in their corner, and then it would have just been xander.  But between anya and willow they could have gotten xander at least on board to tolerance levels.  I think Buffy really blew out of proportion how her friends would react.

I also think she was conflating the darker "nature" of her relationship with spike, with her friends knowing.  Her friends didn't have to know all the gory details.

Jul 01 2007 01:34 am   #21Scarlet Ibis

Why Giles?  Because... I definitely view him being more reasonable and rational at that point over Willow and Xander.  He never really had a problem with Spike until he learned of his "obsession" with Buffy.  But he saw Spike's reaction when Buffy died, and worked with him all summer.  I'd even bet that they hung out during that time, coping with the grief.  Hell, they hung out the previous summer (Giles mentioned it in "The Real Me" at the end).  I'm willing to bet that summer, they had a lot more to discuss.

And I excluded Anya for the simple fact that she has that funny little quirk about her where she does whatever Xander says, and follows his poor example in his assesment of others.  Think about "Something Blue"- when Xander bursts in, seeing Spike and Buffy holding hands and making out, he all with the "eww," and so is Anya, just cause Xander is.  I mean, how well does she even really know Spike at that point?  They have no personal history, and all she knows is that he was a chipped vampire in Giles' tub. Seeing him kiss Buffy should have no personal effect on her whatsoever.  Unless, Spike was ugly, and therefore it would be unpleasant seeing him kiss anyone, but that isn't the case.  Anya may have been around for 1100+ years, but like Buffy, she has a hard time making decisions for herself.

And I agree Zoe- "I'm dating Spike" does not equate to "we enjoy handcuffs during sex," etc.  I mean, for goodness sakes, she isn't Anya And yeah- Anya mentions her and Xander's kinky sex routines, and no one says "ooh, that's *way* too dark you guys, and unhealthy."

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jul 01 2007 04:53 am   #22ZoeGrace

hahahahaha  I know Anya said stuff like: "Yes, Xander and I have enjoyed spanking." hahahahaha

Jul 01 2007 06:12 am   #23Scarlet Ibis

And something about role playing and a shepard?

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jul 01 2007 07:06 am   #24ZoeGrace

hehehehehe.  Anya rocks.  She and Spike would have no doubt had very great sex had they been a couple.  It seemed Buffy was too repressed for Spike and Xander was too repressed for Anya.  I don't see very much really good Spanya fic, but I think those two have a lot in common and make a great pairing.

Jul 01 2007 07:11 am   #25Scarlet Ibis

Though they do have a lot in common, something about them together seems a bit off to me.  Sexually- yes.  But overall? I think something would be lacking.  Like Spaith- lots of things in common, but I don't see it in the long run.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jul 01 2007 05:14 pm   #26Spikez_tart

 I'm dating Spike" does not equate to "we enjoy handcuffs during sex," etc. 

If not, then what does Buffy mean in this scene (Dead Things)?

BUFFY: There has to be! This just can't be me, it isn't me. (starting to cry) Why do I feel like this? Why do I let Spike do those things to me?
TARA: You mean hit you.

Buffy meets Tara's eyes, but only for a moment, then looks away. Tara frowns as she begins to get it.

TARA: Oh.

I suppose it could be having sex with Spike outside the DB Palace or in her front yard where anyone could see them, but I think it's something more.  Spike must be involving her in some kind of sexual practices that she thinks are a little bit too kinky.

 

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Jul 01 2007 07:04 pm   #27Scarlet Ibis

No, I meant if she told her friends that they were dating or in a relationship, they're (her friends) not just going to automatically think that's it's kinky sex or sex in public sometimes. I think Buffy was referring to the handcuffs- that was on her mind when she was talking to Tara.  And that convo with Tara at the end of "Dead Things" was so friggin stupid, considering she just beat the hell out of him about an hour before, and left him in the alley where he *clearly* couldn't stand on his own.  What she should of said was "how can I do those things to Spike?"   sorry, but that ep just pisses me off....

However, I'm sure that Anya will mention the stamina of vampires, or something along those lines, but if someone draws the automatic conclusion that's it's a kinky relationship, then they have a serious case of gutter brain. 

And honestly, if there's a kinky relationship between two consenting adults, then what business is it of theirs anyway?  And we all know, including the Scoobies because of Anya's frank statements, that Xander and Anya's sex life is parallell to Spike and Buffy's anyway.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jul 01 2007 07:57 pm   #28Spikez_tart

 I think Buffy was referring to the handcuffs

Okay, but Buffy's own Mom (and Giles) used handcuffs in Band Candy.  (Are they the same handcuffs?)  If your Mom does it, how kinky can it be?  Heh heh.  This may be another instance of the writers not really thinking things thru. 

 

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Jul 01 2007 08:05 pm   #29SpikeHot

I think Buffy should have told her friends about Spike, all of them didn't seem to mind him. Probably not Xander, but he will eventually cave. The issue isn't about whether the Scoobies accepted Spuffy, it's about whether Buffy accepted Spuffy.

Jul 01 2007 09:02 pm   #30Scarlet Ibis

I don't think Buffy knew about the handcuffs- just that Giles was a "stevedore," lol (whatever that means, cause I don't know...).  I think even Anya mentions handcuffs at one point.  This just proves how stupid Buffy was at that point- who cares if they tie each other up?  If anything, that shows trust on both their ends, which is good for a relationship...

And I agree- Buffy didn't accept Spuffy.  Funny how Tara did... and Giles.  All he did was laugh, though I suspect he knew it was coming.  No, I know he knew it was coming, and wasn't surprised at her admitting it.  And god, the way she admitted it- "I've been sleeping with Spike."  She couldn't have said I've been seeing Spike?  I've been in a relationship with Spike?  No, it's all "Hey Giles, I've been f-ing Spike.  Please scold me now."

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jul 01 2007 10:21 pm   #31ZoeGrace

oh i totally see Spaith in the long run.  They have the very same type of hardness and vulnerability and it would be interesting to see Spike shatter some of Faith's walls she's built around herself.

Spikez_tart well yeah, he's involving her in kinky practices, but she LIKES them.  She initiated the roughness and won't let him be soft with her.  But she didn't have to show tara those handcuff marks or ropeburns or whatever they were.  There are plenty of kinky couples out there who aren't telling the world: "Hey I'm kinky, ask me how."  Not everyone is Anya about it, so there was really no reason she couldn't be with Spike and just keep the kinky stuff to herself.

Maybe it would have helped her to know many humans were engaged in much darker practices than the "junior bdsm" she and Spike were doing.

LMAO @ "I've been F'ing spike, please scold me now."  See? The masochism runs DEEP.  Buffy needs to be punished. 

Jul 02 2007 10:03 am   #32SpikeHot

I believe Buffy made up for all her mistakes toward Spike in season seven. She always put him first, even before Xander and Dawn when they were injured, and she showed him how much she believed in him, she closed the door on Giles' face because he tried to kill him. She was wonderful.

Jul 02 2007 07:08 pm   #33ZoeGrace

I DID like the bonding that took place between her and spike.  If not for the "first" I think she would have started up with him again and told everyone. 

Jul 02 2007 09:16 pm   #34slaymesoftly

I agree with Zoe - I think, given an alternate season vii, with perhaps a lesser apocalyptic villain to worry about (and maybe no potentials all over the damn place?), they would have worked their way back to something in the way of a romantic/sexual relationship.  The renewed friendship and caring was already there and obvious to everyone, and there were multiple hints that there was still a lot of UST there -- the way she reacts when he's hurt, the way he gently moves her hand away, the "it was homey" remark when a potential asked about his crypt, "why does everyone think I'm still in love with Spike?", and her reaction to catching him flirting with Faith (and his own guilty reaction to being caught!) and so forth made it pretty clear that there were feelings still there that just couldn't be explored under the circumstances.  I think it would have taken quite a while for either one of them to be comfortable about initiating sex, given all the baggage they were carting around, but I definitely could see it happening.

BTW - am I all the only bothered by the occasional use of (to me) old-fashioned euphisims for sex ("sleeping with" - Buffy uses this all the time, and yet, she rarely sleeps with him or spends the night so it totally doesn't fit the situation.) And in season III, she calls Angel "my lover" when she is upset over his getting shot with the poisoned arrow.  What the hell happened to "my boyfriend"?  Technically they were not lovers any more - so even if it was word you might expect to hear out of a teenager's mouth, it would be wrong for the situation.   Both of those expressions jarred my right out of the story - just thought I'd see if anyone else noticed or cared. lol

I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
Jul 02 2007 10:38 pm   #35Guest

I'm with you, Slayme- "he's my lover" was wrong on so many lovers.  I never really considered them "lovers-" at least, by the definition that's in my head.  I wouldn't have even considered Riley a "lover."  They were both boyfriends (and Riley was a totally boring version of Angel IMO).  Spike could be considered a lover if she wants to use that term.

And "we've been sleeping together..." meh.  It's okay, though no, there was really sleep, but I just would've said "we've been seeing each other," or "we were in a relationship," which would be more true.  They did hang out and stuff, after all.  Maybe not official "he's my man, I'm his woman" relationship, but still a relationship nevertheless.  And when I think about it, even though it wasn't open, they still had "dibs" on each other or what have you.  Buffy wasn't all into Richard, or flirting with him or whatever, though he did try.  Spike didn't have a real reason to be jealous, even if Tara tried to make it seem otherwise.

Jul 02 2007 10:40 pm   #36Guest

Oh- that was me. Scarlet.

Jul 02 2007 11:02 pm   #37ZoeGrace

Yeah Buffy and Spike Were exclusive in season 6, that sure seems "boyfriend-y" to me.  I agree though that spike would be her "lover" more than any of the rest.  And anyway buffy doesn't TAKE lovers, she's a serial monogamist.  She has boyfriends with relationships.

The primary problem I saw in season six was she was trying to have a lover when that wasn't what she wanted.  And in season 3, seriously calling Angel her lover was squicky.  I was trying to get over that.  Also, it was disturbing on many levels because even if she was an adult there, she's still a teenager and to be telling other people someone is her lover just seemed kind of gauche to me.

"I'm sleeping with spike" came off the same way.

Maybe Buffy wants to be Anya, because she sure does seem to want to reference the sexual nature of her relationships to other people.  The "I'm sleeping with Spike" thing, or "I've been sleeping with spike" thing wasn't so much a "silly euphemism" (IMO) as it was an inappropriate way to define the relationship to other people.

Why the hell Buffy thinks she's going to be judged less harshly for using Spike for sex than having a real relationship with him, I'll never know.

Oh...also on the "lover" thing of season three.  I personally feel that no one has any right to call anyone their "lover" until they've had hot and heavy sexual relations several times.  She had sex once.  Not just with Angel but with ANYONE at that point.  She was practically a virgin, and when you are that close to being a nun, calling someone your lover is just lame and clearly a cry for attention.  It came off as "oh look at me, I'm a grown up I had sex."  She needed a few more rolls in the hay before she started using that word.  Even then it would have been weird on a teen.

Jul 03 2007 12:16 am   #38slaymesoftly

yeah - I probably didn't phrase that really well. The "lover" thing seemed squicky because she was so young to be using a word like that, and it has such adult, extra-curricular connotations for most of us. Married women have "lovers", young girls have boy friends. Even "the man I love" would have worked better for me, since it was the fact that he was so important to her that she was trying to impart.  Picky, picky - I know.

And,exactly, Zoe.  "Sleeping with", even if it was something she might say,  just wasn't right for the situation.  Obviously, Buffy couldn't say "I'm fucking Spike", but she could have admitted to "boinking" "boning" "getting her freak on" etc. etc. . I get that she didn't want to admit to anything that sounded like a relationship - but I think "I've been seeing" might have worked.  I don't think she was worried that her friends would reject her for having a relationship with Spike, though.  I think she was wanting to reject that notion, so she told herself it was just sex.  She was fine with the developing friendship in season V and didn't worry about what her friends would say about her bringing him into the group. And he stayed a part of the group after she died. I think they would have been more acccepting of that than of the idea that she was just humping a vampire that she claimed to dislike just for the hot sex.  Everyone knew how Spike felt about her, so no surprises there. If nothing else, she could have admitted to turning to him for comfort.  There was no need to spell out exactly what that comfort was or how often or in what positions they did it. LOL


I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
Jul 03 2007 12:19 am   #39ZoeGrace

lmao I don't think she should have made any reference to her and spike in bed.  It was just IMO inappropriate lol.  It didn't seem to fit with Buffy as a character.  I mean who just goes up to their father figure and says: "hey, i've been sleeping with..."

I mean I would never tell my dad: "Hey, I'm sleeping with Tom" and he pretty much knows I'm sleeping with him since i"m married to him.

Jul 03 2007 12:47 am   #40Eowyn315

The "lover" thing bothers me... to me, it implies sex, which she was so not having with Angel. Plus, coming out of an eighteen-year-old's mouth, it's just wrong. Maybe she didn't want to call him her "boyfriend" since technically, they'd already broken up. But, in that case, she definitely wouldn't have wanted to say "ex" - so, "the man I love" probably would've been the best term there.

The "sleeping with" doesn't bother me. I don't think of it as old-fashioned... it sounds like something people my age would use, and I've used it before. It's a little disingenuous, since it doesn't always involve actual sleeping... but it's pretty much accepted to mean sex, whether or not you sleep over afterwards.

And, with that context, I don't really see it as an inaccurate description of their relationship... for Buffy, it *was* about sex. You can say she loved him if that's what you believe (I don't) but you can't tell me she was having sex with him *because* she loved him. I think "seeing him" or "in a relationship" or "boyfriend" is actually less accurate, since it implies some sort of acceptance of emotional connection that just isn't there. Yes, he comforted her... but she was *using* him. I think "sleeping with Spike" is the kindest way to describe her relationship with him. Exclusivity alone doesn't make it a boyfriend/girlfriend relationship. There's more to it than "not having sex with anyone else."

And it may not be appropriate to tell your father figure you've been having sex with someone... but I don't think there's anything else she could say that would convey the true nature of the situation. She was telling Giles all the things that had gone wrong while he was gone... and what was "wrong" (in her mind) was the sex. Not the fact that she needed comfort, or that Spike had been a friend to her.

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jul 03 2007 03:33 am   #41Spikez_tart

 he's involving her in kinky practices, but she LIKES them. 

Exactly Zoe, but she thinks it's wrong to like them, although considering the material being passed along in public schools in America today, it's really hard to imagine how she got the idea that anything is kinky.

Re the handcuffs.  Joyce gives them to Buffy and shortly after that Buffy has the mind-reading episode which is when she finds out that Giles boinked her mother, presumably with embarassing details.  Which, now that I think of it included doing it on top of a police cruiser, so maybe Buffy acquired her penchant for outdoor sex from Mom.  Also, stevedores, since Spike qualifies in that department, too.

Sleeping with  - I hate this euphemism, too, but I guess it's a semi-polite way to talk about having sex. 

 

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Jul 03 2007 04:06 am   #42slaymesoftly

Good points, Eowyn.  I do believe that Buffy cared for Spike to some extent during Season VI - for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that she died considering him more or less a friend and someone she trusted. And nothing he did after she got back changed that until he hit her back when he found out the chip didn't work.  I also don't think of Buffy as the kind of girl who could or would have sex with someone she really considered "beneath her"just to prove to herself how miserable she was.  She allowed him to make the world go away for a while and I don't believe, no matter how good he was, that he would have been able to do that for her if she felt too bad about what she was doing.  Yes, she thought it was wrong, but the very fact that she didn't like to think that she was using someone who loved her indicates to me that she cared to some extent. 

I know that "sleeping with" is a very common euphemism - it just always struck me as strange coming from Buffy's mouth.  It's not something I've heard any kids or young adults use and I would have expected her to use something else that might indicate casual or recreational sex. (having sex, comes to mind - pretty clear, that one. lol)

I really need to rewatch from the beginning (maybe not season I), so that I can be sure that I'm not misremembering things or confusing things that happened on the show with common fanon beliefs.

I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.