Recently, I started to post my story "Insight" on FanFiction.Net. Yesterday I received a comment, that actually surprised me. It's a bit long, so I won't quote it here, but the thing is this person told me I had been wrong when I had written in my summary "slightly AU". The reviewer pointed out that my canonical errors are much bigger, because I don't follow BtVS season 8 comic books and I haven't warned my readers about that. I've just wrote "post NFA" and I was sure it's enough, that everyone will know from which point I pick up the story. I answered, of course, and explained that I don't consider "The Long Way Home" canon and that, well, I'm not alone in this statement. 

I was told that I was in the minority.

My question is: did I make a mistake? I always thought that those who follow season 8 are in the minority, I've never met anybody warning about not doing that. Post series always meant "post Chosen" or "post NFA" - depending on the story. Well, for me, of course.

What about you? What is canon for you? I know what Joss said about season 8 being an official continuation of BtVS but... Doesn't fan fiction follow it's own rules?

I'd say that canon stops when it stopped being televised.  The comics are special, cause they're from the creator sure, but for most of us, it's pretty unofficial.  In fact, it's really just fan fiction from Joss, if that makes any sense.  I don't see any need to include "season 8" as canon, especially since it's no where near finished, and in addition to that, there've been hundreds of fics already started, and many finished, that are post "Chosen" or "Not Fade Away."  We've made our own endings.  We've beat Joss to the punch.  He's the late comer in all this.

Had his season eight been a film of some kind, then yeah, I'd see it as canon.  As it stands, it's just something else to read to pass the time, and discuss in the forums.

Keep doing what you do, and don't worry about one reader/reviewer who's in the minority, and just doesn't know it yet ;)

I think that some reviewers you just have to take with a grain of salt and realize that they are canon Nazis.  As soon as you write your first word of a story you are throwing canon out the window!  Personally, I'm avoiding the comics because Bander makes me ill.

Don't know how many people do or do not consider the Season 8 comics as canon, but whether we do or do not does not make it canon.  Joss is the creator, and, therefore, he determines what is his canonical text.  If Joss says Season 8 is canon, then it's canon.  

Most fanfic sites were founded prior to the release of the Season 8 comics, so the criterion listed (e.g., post-Chosen, post Not Fade Away, etc.) for fic time lines will obviously not coincide with Season 8 as being part of the canon as it didn't exist until Joss decided that it would :-P  So, if you noted that you story takes place "post NFA," then you were not wrong.  You just meant that the story picks up after the episode NFA.  The direction in which your plot goes after NFA is up to you as you are the creator, and not Joss :-) Think of it this way: one fanfic writer's universe doesn't negate or invalidate another fanfic writer's universe.  Think of Joss as one more writer telling his own tale.

I do read the comics, and I do consider them canon, if for no other reason than TGiQ Buffy being an imposter :-D , simply because Joss has deemed them canonical.  I am a canon Nazi, and I am not ashamed.  But I in no way think that all fics should concur with the canon.  That would just be boring.  So, yes, a fic that doesn't follow that storyline would be off-canon.  However, just about all fanfic IS off-canon, which is sort of the point: Once the characters are in the writer's hands, it's up to her/him what happens. 

I would like to point out that, just 'cause Joss says it's canon, doesn't mean that fans have to like it or abide by it.  For example, if Buffy so much as looks at Xander in a non-platonic way, I will consider Joss officially crazier and more out-of-touch of reality than Drusilla.  It just doesn't jive with anything that has happened in Joss's Buffyverse up to this point; and, to me, it would seem like a desperate attempt on Joss's part to have the dorky funny (hypocritical, judgmental, bigoted) guy get the girl.  And that would just reveal waaaay too much of Joss's own psychological baggage into the mix for my taste :-P

I didn't mean canon Nazi in a bad way, because those are the best people to ask canon questions.  However, I don't think that basically telling a person their story is all wrong because it doesn't follow canon is very nice.  Just my opinion.  LOL

Scarlet Ibis: In fact, it's really just fan fiction from Joss, if that makes any sense.

Well, it does seem to be like that. Especially, if Joss is not making a film but writing a comic.

Immortal Beloved: If Joss says Season 8 is canon, then it's canon.

I'm not arguing with that one (okay, I did argue with that but I shouldn't). I was just thinking that fan fiction is something different and it gives us, writers, a free hand.

Immortal Beloved: So, if you noted that you story takes place "post NFA," then you were not wrong.  You just meant that the story picks up after the episode NFA.  The direction in which your plot goes after NFA is up to you as you are the creator, and not Joss (...)

Well, that was what I thought - I noted where I took the story over from, didn't I? So I did it the right way? 

Thank you very.

Cereza, you're not in the wrong. Post NFA tells plenty, and since most of us DO consider the stoppage of canon at what was last on TV, don't worry about one complaining reviewer.

I agree with everything Scarlet said. Blow the person off, they can say what they want, but I bet they will continue to read your fic. *wink*

Oh, I tried to "kill" that person with my patience and politeness :) I think I actually succeeded, 'cos her/his next e-mail wasn't so aggressive :)

Thank you, guys, for the moral support!

I know many who enjoy and consider season 8 canon. I think that person is just being too canon loyal. However, it'll be the best if you wrote 'ignoring season 8' as a warning just to avoid the headaches.

Can I chime in here?  I think the best way to resolve this is to write something like: "Canon until NFA, then goes AU."  :) Simple. straight forward, 'nuff said.

You know, that question should actually be irrellevant when you post on ff.net - assuming you're posting in the TV-Show -> Buffy the Vampire Slayer section. I know that there are other fandoms who are split into Movie/Book/whatever on ff.net, so a fic in the BtVS TV-Show section shouldn't HAVE to take the Comics into account. ;-) But I guess telling the reviewer that would only piss him/her off.

(...) a fic in the BtVS TV-Show section shouldn't HAVE to take the Comics into account.

Oh, I haven't thought about that. The argument's kinda over, but I'll keep that in mind. Just in case :)

I have seen a couple fics based on the comic and that is stated, I would not worry, I too have been called on things not going canon and considering the fact that my AN: said my first all human fic, I really don't feel Spike should be living in a Crypt and Drinking Blood.

Some people just complain about anything, and everything. But ff.net does not have a comic section so maybe the creators need to add one.

If the comics (especially the ones "written" by Joss) are to be considered canon then we are faced with TONS of reasons for wanking just to make sense of what HE is writing let alone our fic.  For example this is taken from the Wikepedia section on the comic "Frey" written by Joss during the run of BtVS.  Frey is a far future Slayer :

Connections to Buffy the Vampire Slayer

Fray's scythe was featured prominently in the final three episodes of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, the television show which shares the same fictional "Buffyverse" as Fray. Buffy Summers, also a vampire Slayer, found the scythe embedded in rock in Sunnydale. The scythe was later used to channel power into creating fully developed Slayers of the many Potential Slayers. It has never been stated as to how the scythe travelled from Sunnydale, California to New York City through the centuries, or who had it during the interim (or how they got it), since it was not the Watchers who gave Melaka the weapon, but Urkonn.

In Fray it is also explained that sometime in the twenty-first century, "a Slayer, possibly with some mystical allies, faced an apocalyptic army of demons. And when it was done, they were gone. All demons, all magicks, banished from this earthly dimension," and the Slayer, whose fate is unknown, was the last to be called.

Discussing her connection to the Slayer line, Urkonn tells Melaka, "In your dreams, you're someone else. A slave. A princess. A girl in school in a sunlit city." The scar Fray has and her personality resembles Buffy in the alternate universe created in season 3 episode "The Wish". In the canonical comics, Buffy the Vampire Slayer Season Eight, one of the Slayers is shown to be reading a Fray comic, a minor in-joke to fans of the series.

Note the information on the battle that ENDED ALL DEMON ACTIVITY IN OUR DIMENSION!  It is clearly meant to be Buffy he speaks of and either the battle against the FE in Chosen or the battle in LA during NFA fit yet the new comics show the fight against demons continue as always.  It also notes that Buffy was the last Slayer to be called and her fate was unknown.  Hum.........

I tend to agree that the comics are Joss' fanfic and what aired is the story in stone.  I tend to pick and choose (I like that Buffy was not the Slayer in Rome for example because I like Buffy as a character too much to have her become a stone cold bitch to the two major loves of her life!) but reject utterly the storylines of the current "season 8".  I'll reserve judgement on the "Angel season 6" as the few hints I've seen are promising and the writers at that comic company have done a reasonably great job with their stories and characterizations.

Kathleen

I still don't see what's wrong with Buffy going to Rome and dating someone (even someone cheasy like The Immortal) she saved the world many times and she deserves a break. Besides, Spike is dead (as far as she knows), should she mourn him until the day she dies? She's just twenty two, she should get on with her life.

Now I agree that the Buffy in the comics is more interesting, than a Buffy partying in Rome, but I still don't get why fans call her a bitch for having fun. It's not like Spike told her he was alive. It's not her fault she doesn't know.

But Buffy isn't the last Slayer called, anyway, since Kendra and Faith carry on the line after her. That battle doesn't have to have anything to do with Buffy, and could be about the last of the current Potentials-turned-Slayers, since Fray is way in the future.

I think it's hard to consider Fray canon, even though Joss wrote it. I just found this David Fury interview for another thread, and it references the Fray comics:

FURY: I talked to him about it when he was writing Fray and I think that he always had the sense that it was Buffy. But the fact that it's left vague in the comics makes it open for interpretation. People can decide whatever they want and Joss can certainly decide it's not Buffy, but at the time he wrote it he believed that it was Buffy.

But he also says that Fray was written before season 7 (it started in 2001, actually), and that Joss "allowed the mythology to serve whatever story he wanted to tell so he didn't lock himself into a concrete mythology that would limit him. If he had a story he wanted to tell, he would adjust the mythology accordingly." In other words, Joss may have decided to ignore the Fray mythology because the story he wanted to tell in Buffy season 7 was better.

Rather than start a new thread, I found this one (while searching for something else), and figured I'd bump it up to post this article on what is considered canon (according to that person, anyway). I saw it last week on Whedonesque (and if you're adventurous, you can go read their discussion... those people are intense) and thought it might be of interest here. I know we've discussed the parameters of canon before, a concept that is especially complicated now with the introduction of the comics.

It seems like the areas for debate are:

1. facts explicitly laid out in the text (on the show/in the comic)
2. facts implied by the text but never explicitly stated (including character motivations)
3. facts stated or clarified by the creator outside the text (in interviews or DVD commentaries, known as "authorial intent")
4. facts not explicitly stated but generally accepted by the majority of the fandom (fanon)

To me, the first is obviously canon, the second and third are debatable, and the fourth is not, as fanon is something else entirely. The thing that I find interesting in the article is the consideration of "personal canon" - i.e. something that's not explicitly stated on the show, but that you, the fan, personally believe to be true. Isn't that just opinion? Does calling it "personal canon" give it an air of authority it doesn't have? 

Anyway, just some food for thought.

I'm just surprised someone bothered to complain about this at all. I've read many stories that don't point out the full extent to which they veer off canon, but have never even thought about complaining to an author about it. If anything, I'd prefer authors to not give too much away at the start (for example, telling us that all the characters die in a story kinda takes away the shock factor when it happens). The whole thing just seems kinda pedantic to me. If I'm going to make a critisism in a review, I save it for actual problems where the story doesn't make sense, or someone uses unreadably bad spelling and grammar. Am I just overly polite?

Can someone give me the current info and ideas regarding Spike and Illyria/Fred.  Is Spike now in love with Illyria/Fred or has he developed strong feelings of romantic love for her?  Is this now part of the Buffyverse canon?  Where did this development come out in the Angel After The Fall?

I totally hate the idea of Spike falling in love with Illyria/Fred - I hate the entire idea of Illyria being able to live with human emotions to the extent that Illyria/Fred would be able to actually experience human love.  The differences between The God Illyria and the human woman Fred as of such great magnetude.  I find it extremely difficult to  accept that the two entities could exist together on a level that would bring human emotional reactions and understanding of those emotions onto the life form of Illyria.  It is one thing for Illyria to take on the physical appearance of Fred, even to have access to her memories and emotions, but that does not neccessarily mean that Illyria's intellect and current physical form would function as a human. 

What do you think - Can Illyria/Fred actually feel human love for Spike?  I think Spike could feel love for her, but I would be very hard pressed to believe that Illyria/Fred would be able to return love as human beings feel it. 

I am really confused about this new relationship - are the writers and Joss trying to bring more separation between the Sunnydale Slayers Arc and Angel in Hell and Back Again.

Witty romantic comedy with a superior cast. Contains some of the sloppiness one would expect from RKO under Hughes. Powell's character has supposed to possess one of the first writing Oscars, yet he is only 35 (26 years after the first Academy Awards). Spotting Reynolds using Oscar as a nutcracker, Powell drops lit cigarette on carpeted floor. Reynolds offer Powell scrambled eggs; Powell and Reynolds are then seen eating eggs "over easy." However, even Hughes' RKO can't ruin wonderful performances from Powell, Reynolds, and a fine supporting cast. I rate this movie very highly because, underneath the frothy comedy is some very uneasy themes, which would garner such a movie an "R" rating today, assuming it could be made. Though by SUSAN, the 22 year old Reynolds was a real Hollywood veteran (she'd made SINGIN IN THE RAIN two years earlier), she plays a 17 year old (which she continued to do for at least the next three years; witness TAMMY AND THE BACHELOR) Powell's at ten years too old for the part, making the May-December romance issue REALLY stick out. This movie is a "coming of age" film for the characters portrayed by Powell, Reynolds and the character "Maude," Powell's man-hungry writing assistant (Always wondered if Rose Marie's character on DICK VAN DYKE was modeled on this character). Powell's Mark and Reynolds' Susan walk a slender tightrope which IS the "father-daughter / daughter-wife" romantic conflict. Mark is a lifelong bachelor, apparently unable to commit, unsure what he really wants. Susan is a young romantic, certain of what she wants, ready to commit. The movie has a good romantic score and a great ballad, "Hold My Hand." One shudders at what Hollywood would do with such a story these days. These days they usually kill one of the members of such a match, even when the female is in hear twenties. Make the girl 17 (such as here) and I doubt any studio would release it. MEMO TO HOLLYWOOD: Justice William O. Douglas and Charlie Chaplin both had "child brides." Sometimes, these things work. No one would believe Mark could keep his hands off Susan, since the "moral restrictions" so prevalent up to 1960 no longer exist. Food for thought...