Conversation by auberus

09/21/2011 05:22 pm
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Wonderful fic and love the strength of Spike's honesty.

The Initiative has always been the greatest of evil's to me because it smacks of the labs of the Nazi movement.....yes these are literally demons not just demonized people but it still involved at least many sentient, feeling, beings that were deemed of no importance save what they wished to do to them.  These were the "good and fully souled" humans doing this.  I never understood why Willow at least didn't snap to the similarities and feel at the very least uncomfortable.

Spike is correct that underestimating the enemy is the beginning of the end for the side currently winning.  Just needs outwaiting.

One of the moments in S7 that I HATED HATED HATED was when Buffy said all vampires were just animals in front of Spike.  She knew better by then and to say something so dismissive was not excusable in my opinion.  I understood her actions in S6 even if I didn't like them but THAT was not acceptable!

Excellent story
Kathleen

09/17/2011 06:54 pm
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Well done! Packs a lot of punch (and provokes a lot of thoughts!) in a fairly short piece.

Buffyconvert
08/15/2009 10:30 am
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     Thank you for this insightful piece. One of the great things about BtVS is the social commentary . No group is above the law, and unchecked zeal can and must lead to evilness. The Jonestown tragedy of the 1970's was perpetrated by a man who years earlier had been a force for integration in the Christian church. But he let pride in his ability, in his uniqueness, override any morality he had. This is the course that often, some would say always, is the result of any human system that lasts for long. Buffy, in her casual cruelty of Spike, also epitomises this. It is quite similar to the strange contortions in logic that was part of the antebellum South, also.

Niori
05/12/2009 04:27 am
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This was awesome.
I totally agree with you about the Initative; they were so underused on the show but had the potential to be the biggest bad of all---because they weren't some supernatural force, but a bunch of humans meddling in something that they shouldn't have been. I mean, why the heck did Buffy & Co never ask WHY they were expirmenting on the demons. I mean clearly Spike was never supposed to get out (or they wouldn't have had the huge search for him), so why did they need the chip to stop him from hurting humans? If they didn't plan to use it for something, then they'rd be no point. To me, that sounds like they were going to use him for some not-so-plesant thing, probably along the lines of gov't weapon. That right there is scarier than any of the other bad guys that have been on the show.
And yes! Way to remind Buffy/Riley/Giles that Spike is still dangerous!! I personally thing the Scoobies were complete idoits to be such jerks to him; he could have still killed them ten times over. All he would have to do was hire minions, which he has done in the past, to kill them all. Or set the building they were in on fire. Those are only two ways. I ways always kinf od ticked that they never brought that idea up in the show.
Anyway, after that long rantish review I will once again point out that this is awesome.

10/19/2008 04:22 am
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I am so glad that your splendid work was the featured random story - gave me a chance to read it again - GREAT PIECE.  I loved it as much on my third reading as the first.  The Initiative was, in my POV the scariest Big Bad along with The First - both because they go into what, IMO, is the place where real evil lives, in the human psyche and twisted realities that human devise to support whatever evil they want to commit or believe. 

I wish you would write other works and post them here -

05/05/2008 07:48 am
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Great Piece - The Initiative from my POV was the greatest evil of all the series - it reflected the real world dynamics of hatred, bigotry, self-righteous hypocrisy, brutality based on the belief that "The Other" is a group of worthless individuals that can be abused and subjected to extreme cruelty and death simply because you wish it so.  Maggie Walsh and her soldiers and doctors were of the same mettle that brought us the Nazi Nightmare and the same darkness that continues to feed the horrors of today.  
Thank you!

I agree with you about the Initiative; however, what made both the Initiative and the Nazis so truly frightening is that, with very few exceptions, they were normal people -- just like anyone you'd meet on the street.  There was an experiment done in the United States in the early 1960's that's worth looking up -- it was called the Milgram Experiment.   The experimenters were trying to find out what drove the Nazis to commit their atrocities -- and the results were truly frightening.  A majority of the participants proved themselves willing to administer what they believed to be horrendously painful electric shocks to a total stranger without any serious pressure being applied.

Alexis
05/05/2008 06:20 am
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Yes yes yes!!! I love this. It's exactly what someone should have told the Initiative. You don't mess with something you don't understand. You'll get burned every time.

I agree with your comments about the Initiative being a frightening concept. Underused on the show but the potentia was there to be truly apocaplytic. Clearly the chip wasn't meant to rehabilitate vamps since no efforts were put into that. No, they were building themselves an army of controllable supernatural beings. And that is truly frightening.

I love your characterization of Spike, btw. Excellent job!
Thank you!  I'm so glad you enjoyed the story!

Kat
05/02/2008 05:51 am
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I just want to say that that was fantastic and I could totally hear him saying it.  He has those moments when you can almost feel the Big Bad in him - like in season 7 when he pulls out his leather coat, lights up his cigarette, and gets his rocks back.  You just have to love that in a vamp.
Yeah, you really do.  Thanks so much -- I'm glad you liked the story!

04/30/2008 12:14 pm
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Good to be reminded that Spike is so much more than love's bitch.  Government agencies who always know best are seriously sinister.
Yeah, they really, really are.

Thanks so much for the lovely feedback!

04/28/2008 05:26 pm
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Very well said. It irritated me beyond belief that Spike, in Joss' words, became the "new Cordelia" in season 4, so it was satisfaction personified to read Spike as you've written him. Chipped or not, he was still a deadly force, and the gang was really ignorant not to take that into account.

Also, love the tongue-lashing Spike gave Captain Cardboard :) Good on you. *claps*
Thank you!

And so very true.  Spike deserved better.  I'm poking at a Wishverse AU in which he shows up at roughly the same time as the Initiative, but doesn't fall into their hands. 

04/28/2008 12:35 pm
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Excellently done.  You've made Spike truly frightening, and I love the way you highlight that, with Buffy thinking that she used to be scared of him, and she's glad he's leashed by the chip.  I agree with your note; the Initiative could have been used better, could have been very scary.  The parallels that people draw to Nazi-ism are not misplaced, when you think about it.

Thank you so very much for the lovely feedback!  I'm glad that the story worked for you.

Did you ever see the Angel episode 'Why We Fight'?  It traces the origins of the Initiative directly back to Nazi Germany.

Dreylin
04/28/2008 05:07 am
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Great bit of perspective and insight there from Spike.  I'd love to see a follow up conversation with any combo of Buffy, Riley, and Giles.  I always enjoy Spike, but he's said his bit pretty well, and I want reaction.
Thank you!  I'm not sure that there will be a follow-up -- it'll depend on whether or not inspiration strikes, I suppose.

04/28/2008 04:48 am
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OOO - enjoyed that little Spike shiver of fear. 
Thank you!  That was what I was aiming for.  :)

04/28/2008 04:03 am
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pfeifferpack stated it well. exceptional read, thank you.
Thank you!  I'm glad you like it!

time of change
04/28/2008 03:35 am
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Ah, there's evil Spike.  Well written, great voice.
Thank you!

Nell
04/27/2008 05:15 am
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 This was really excellent -- both the writing and the concept. (I even enjoyed the author's note!)  I've always wondered what the season would have been like if Buffy's "Look it up: Slayer comma the" attitude had continued through the season. I don't suppose there's more where this story came from?
Wow, thank you!

I'll admit to poking around at an AU in which Spike doesn't get chipped, the Slayer & her friends listen to Ethan Rayne, and they team up to take down the Initiative.  It's a guilty pleasure!  :)

04/27/2008 03:28 am
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Loved it!  Way to remind everyone what a badass Spike is. 
Thank you, thank you!

IT
04/27/2008 01:49 am
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I like it!  You're right, they may have chipped him, but the demon is still there, just waiting to get out.  The Initiative really had no idea what they were dealing with, and, therefore, no respect for the power that the 'hostiles' truly had.  It's too bad Maggie Walsh was let off so easily - what I mean is, her death was too simple, she never did see the truth in her 'subjects' or have to pay for what she did to them.
Nice writing, thanks. 
I agree.  Thanks so much for the comments -- I'm glad you liked the story!

04/27/2008 12:34 am
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Well done!
Thank you!

04/26/2008 11:59 pm
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HAHA!! Awesome! I always wished Spike would do something like this, as the idiotic "heroes" always seemed to underestimate Spike. I really loved this one.

04/26/2008 11:58 pm
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HAHA!! Awesome! I always wished Spike would do something like this, as the idiotic "heroes" always seemed to underestimate Spike. I really loved this one.
thanks!

04/26/2008 11:57 pm
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HAHA!! Awesome! I always wished Spike would do something like this, as the idiotic "heroes" always seemed to underestimate Spike. I really loved this one.
Why, thank you!

04/26/2008 10:05 pm
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Excellent monologue and Author's Notes too!
Thank you so much!

04/26/2008 10:02 pm
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Hitler wanted the supernatural as badly as to get his hands on anything that was rumoured to be of this world. Any Goverment would the impossible if these artifacts were for real. Scary!!

Awesome little ficlet, how very right Spike is!!!!
Thank you!

04/26/2008 09:41 pm
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Amazing; I can totally see Spike giving this speech to Riley; really wish he'd had the chance; I hate the way he was beaten down in S4...  really enjoyed this, very good!
Thank you!

04/26/2008 06:18 pm
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Lovely chilling vingette!

As for the A/N, I am in complete agreement with you.  The whole concept of the Initiative (especially without Adam that made it just another freak of the week thing) was horrifying.  I liken them to the Nazi camps and cannot imagine a force for "good" like Buffy and the group ever seeing them as a good thing.  Kill demons is one thing especially if they are doing harm...torture and chipping and so on is just evil being done by humans.

Kathleen
Thank you!

And yeah -- the Nazi connection is an easy one to make, especially after the submarine ep of Angel!  They really could have gone much further with that plot than they did.

J.
04/26/2008 04:48 pm
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Excellent. please continue.
Thank you!  This is a one-shot, but as I prefer my Spike evil, there'll probably be more along the same lines.

04/26/2008 03:51 pm
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I loved the caveat. This was Spike at his scariest, and well worth reading.
Thank you so much!

Ivy
04/26/2008 03:01 pm
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wow, Scary Spike makes an appearance, I love it when he shows Riley up with a speech. well done and good chap.
Thank you!  I'll admit, the direction they took Spike in after mid s4 irritated me greatly.

04/26/2008 02:13 pm
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That was amazing.  I loved all of Spike's expressions and their reactions to them.  Wow. 
Riley's silence after Spike started was perfect.  Giles' reaction too.
Thank you!  I'm so glad you enjoyed it!