I was just wondering, if a vampire is a animated corpse and the human soul is no longer there. How come when they are dusted the go to hell? How can the soul be punished for something it didn't do. It was the demon, not the human. That confuses me.

It's the same question that's plagued me regarding Angel's curse and Spike's won soul.  Why does the soul feel guilty for the actions of the demon?  The Buffyverse was always large with the inconsistencies.  My personal theory is that the soul isn't lost upon turning, simply repressed.  The soul is the individual's moral system and the parasitic demon is the override.  All the baser natures (and host personality) are still there, but the system of right/wrong takes a backseat.  Why SHOULD you care anymore when you've been given incredible powers and, what is essentially, immortallity?  But as Spike proved with his chipped-but-helpful state, you still have free will and the ability to overcome those destructive impulses, although it may be a harder call to make.  I think it would have been interesting if Joss Whedon had actually explored the redemptive possibilities in Spike's "unsouled" state.  It would have been a more powerful and thought provoking premise than the stale soul = good concept that they ran into the ground.  And frankly, any human "Big Bad" throws that theory out the window.  I've often wondered if the main human character's inability to make this logical leap is just lazy writing or an actual attempt to convey the character's own flawed veiwpoints. 

amen sister

I don't think it's as simple as wondering why the human soul would feel guilty for what the demon did.  I mean, I think if anyone were to imagine knowing that you, regardless of demon possession or souled/unsouled status, did horrible, atrocious things to other people, anyone would feel guilty.  I'm sure everyone would react differently given different personalities, but unless you were already a depraved individual, you would definitely feel some kind of remorse.

Angel was obviously the brooding type of person who can't let go of the past and move on.  Spike was more the type to just say he's sorry, but he can't do anything about the past and so let it go.  That's not to say he didn't or shouldn't have felt guilty; there were times when it definitely caught up with him, i.e. when he first got his soul and was still slightly crazy, and later, even after he'd started coming to terms with himself, such as when he had to deal with Dana on AtS:  "And I'm supposed to, what, complain, cuz her's wasn't one of the hundreds of families I did kill?"

I've also kind of always thought that just because the soul is gone, doesn't mean the person doesn't know right from wrong.  It just means that they don't care.  They don't care in much the same way any predator at the top of the food chain doesn't care.  Some might argue that only excuses a vampire's need to kill people for food, but not the obvious joy that they get from causing pain and destruction.  To that, I say look at any house cat that plays with a dying mouse, watching it run away until the cat bats it down with its claws again.  Sometimes the cat will eat the mouse.  Sometimes it just decides the mouse isn't fun anymore now that it's stopped moving, and walks away.  It doesn't make the cat evil.  It simply has no reason to care.  Just like a soulless vampire has no reason to care.

On the other side of that coin, that's not to say that a soulless vampire can't find a reason to care.  See Spike.  See the changes he made to himself before he got the soul.  But it was undoubtedly harder for him than it would be for any average souled person, and that's really what makes him so extraordinary.

I think I may have hijacked this thread, but there's my two cents worth.  Maybe fifty cents worth...

There were many instances in the flashbacks of Angel that showed what he was like before he was turned. He wasn't a 'bad man' per se.

Liam was described as being a womanizer and a lout--lazy for all intents and purposes and when he drank, he was prone to brawls with others in the village who shared the same opinion of him that his father had.

I've always looked at Angel the same way I looked at Spike. The demons they became were indicitive of who they were before they were turned. Spike was a caring, considerate introvert who was teased without mercy by his peers and made to feel as if he were beneath them. After he was turned, he was shaped and further moulded by his insane sire (Dru) and his torturous grandsire (Angelus) and his great-grandsire (Darla). Fortunately, because of his upbringing with a mother who loved and adored him, he was able to retain some of his humanity, thus making him too 'humane' for the likes of his vampire family.

Angel on the otherhand had a lousy upbringing. He was described as this: 'Angel was born as Liam, to an Irish merchant, in 1727. By 1753, at the age of 26, he had developed a taste for alcohol, women and sloth. Though not a bad man, Liam was a hedonist whose only real ambition lay in seeing the world. For the lazy Irishman, that seemed a laughable dream, especially after he was expelled from his father's household '.

His father was portrayed as being unloving and overly demanding with little to no tolerance for anything less than what he demanded (much like Wesley's father was which I think is part of the reason they were able to bond so well...kindred spirits and all).  He was never accepted by his father who was constantly quite cruel in his mocking and ridicule of because Liam wanted more than the life that was being forced upon him; he wanted to see the world outside his village and his father wouldn't allow that, restrincting him and demanding even more of him and because Liam couldnt not meet up with his father's expectations, he was told that he did not work hard enough or was grateful enough and indulged too much in women and alcohol. By the time he was 26, Liam pretty much gave up on ever trying to appease his father since nothing was ever good enough after his father kicked him out of the house when he caught him with a servant girl. He quit caring about his father's approval and wanting his mom to stand up for him and goes off to the tavern where he proceeds to get drunk as hell and is fighting with other patrons and simply further turns into the man his father always claimed him to be: a drunken, womanizing lout.

Then enter Darla. A manipulative, disease-ridden prostitute-turned vampire who played the angle of Liam's Father's disapproval to her advantage and promising riches and excitement and basically offered him the world on a silver platter if he would let her sire him and then further exploited his upbringing to get him to slaughter the whole village and then his family. With that, I pretty much think that is where his humanity was squashed into oblivion.

I think Spike thought Angel to be a sadistic SOB before his siring because that is what he was told. I mean really? Who else knew what kind of person Angel was as Liam before he was turned other than Angel himself and we all know that when Angel was Angelus, he was very much into the grandstanding and prone to exaggeration of his greatness. Not to say he wasn't an evil bastard before he was souled (after his turning) but with his mocking and ridicule and cruelty to Spike after he was sired, why would Spike believe Liam had been any different before his turning?

Let's face it... Liam was turned in 1753 and killed his entire village and his family. William wasn't sired until around 1880...more than 130+ years AFTER Liam was so there was pretty much no-one left around that could tell Spike what Angel was like. Dara couldn't really contribute anything to it other than what she saw of him before she sired him.

Furthermore, we all know that the Council books were full of holes and were implicitly narrow-minded. Angel, Spike, Darla and Dru were painted to being the most cruel, blood-thirsty vampires ever in the history. I do think there was an awful lot of horrible, atrocious things done, but I also believe that it was embellished and exaggerated to some extent.

Wow...after re-reading all of that, I sound like an Angel fan! O.o

Really, I do like Angel, but I also know he was imperfect and did a lot of crappy things to people he was supposed to care about. I am definitely a Spike fan and I think he is handsome that he and Buffy were better together than she and Angel but come on....Angel is pretty damn hot!! Also, he does have some redeeming qualities. That is why I will not completely bash him into oblivion when I write. I use what is there, but if he was all bad, then Cordy wouldnt have fallen for him nor would he have been able to inspire the kind of loyalty that he did in her, Wesley, Lorne, Gunn and Fred.

Anyhoo, let's not forget that there were so many writers in the BtVS and AtS shows. When you have that many people writing that many characters and stories, things are bound to be overlooked and have loopholes and such. We all do it now in our fanfic. We forget a detail that kind of throws things off a bit, so we just put it down as Cannon and we are only one writing. Try being one of 20 or so.

Anyhoo....just my .02 :)

Hear, hear!

Yes, but a good Angel bash once in a while is ok,lol. But truth be told I love Angel and Spike the way the are. I mean, I love Angel sans soul more, but that's just me.

Ummm...the whole souled/unsouled thing was pretty much blown- from the word "go" by Joss himself.  In the very first "Buffy" episode, "Giles" speaks of the human corpse being "infected" with the demon soul when turned into a vampire.  If you don't believe me, break out the dvd's.  

So, I guess that means that vampires have their own souls, and will as well.  That makes me feel much better about "Spike."  "Angel"...not so much.

I just wish the writers had chosen a story, and stuck to it.  It would have made things so much easier.

FetchingMadScientist

Yeah but we all know Season 1 Giles was a somewhat ignorant git compared to Season 7 Giles who had since learned that the Council was filled with gross inaccuracies and outright lies as well as narrow-minded bigotry.

Well although Giles was more of an ignorant Council git in Season 1, he was still an ignorant pillock in Season 7.  Even though he'd seen that not all that he thought was true was truth, he still tried to kill Spike based on his own twisted sense of justice.  Giles became more cynical and I feel more prejudiced as the years went on because of Angelus and the BS that went on with that.  So, instead of realizing other truths, he still remained locked in some 1st season ideals.

I personally agree with bits and pieces that different people said about the demons and souls.  I also agree that the show didn't stick with one way of doing or describing it.  Yes, the show grew some as it went ... but in other ways it just contradicted itself time and time again.

I think that the soul is repressed or buried.  How much shows through I think depends on who they were as a human.  I refuse to acknowledge the whole soul = good.  Sorry ... way too many mass murderers, terrorists, etc out there for me to give that any credence.  I also don't think that no soul or demon equals bad.  If you want to cite a religious example ... the devil knows right from wrong.  It's a matter of him just not caring to do things any way but the way he wants to.  (and no I didn't say that to open a theological can of worms)  So, I think that a demon can choose one way or another to go.

Yeah, I know I didn't sign in, but I'm putting my siggie here.  That way you all know who posted this.

~*~Tasha~*~