BSV Forum - Writing - General Tips

Common Mistakes and random advice

Feb 03 2007 05:15 am   #1slaymesoftly

I thought I'd run through a list of some common mistakes that writers make, and  some of the commonly confused words that we have stashed in the Riters_R_Us memories.

Things to avoid:

Saying "off of" - ninety-nine times out of a hundred, just "off" is sufficient.  If you say that Spike brushed the dust "off of" Buffy, you are actually saying that he was sweeping somewhere other than on her.

Would of, could of, should of -- nope, nope and nope.  Yes, when speaking, we all say would've, could've and should've - as can your characters when they are speaking.  But those words are contractions of would have, could have and should have.  In your narrative, when you are writing them out, please use 'have', not 'of'.

{It is, I think, quite common for people to write expressions with which they aren't terrible familiar, the way they have heard them, rather than writing the actual expression.  For instance, in addition to the very common ones above, there is the expression: "If you think that I would do that; you've got another think coming."  For some reason, perhaps because the "k" sound and the "g" aren't often articulated clearly, some people write this very common if somewhat dated, expression as "....another thing coming."  Which makes no sense, if you think about it - clearly the speaker is talking about thinking - but that is what it sounds like, so sometimes people write it that way.  I had another one in mind, but can't think of it right now. I'll come back and add it later when it comes back to me.}  Edited to reflect that many people have grown up hearing "thing" and that is their version of the expression. After much discussion here and on RRU, some research, and reviewing all the comments, it seems appropriate to accept this expression as the author understands it to be correct. It is apparently too common a belief to worry about correcting and is usually accepted either way.

"Her and Susie went to the store."  If "her" doesn't go to the store when she's alone, then "her" still doesn't go to the store even if she has picked up a companion.  (that's my less-than-subtle way of reminding everyone that "she" is the pronoun to use as the subject of a sentence. She goes, he goes, I go, you, etc   Her, him, me - all object pronouns.  They don't get to do stuff, they just have stuff done to them.  "She hit her with a stick." "She and I hit her and him with a bigger stick."  

Words that get confused -let's see....

faze and phase - use the proper one, please!  A phase is a stage- the moon has phases.  When people are nonplussed by something, they are fazed. (Or, more commonly, unfazed)

bait and bate - "baited breath" is very fishy smelling.  Breath that is being held (abated) is "bated breath".  Nuff said.

rain, rein, reign  -  *screams* "rain" is wet, "to rein" is to pull something in (think reins on a horse's bridle) and "to reign" is to rule over.  

I refuse to even contemplate having to teach anyone who has graduated from high school the proper use of "to, too, two", "there, their, they're" and "your, you're, yore". Please tell me I don't have to....  Edited to reflect the difference between knowing something and having disobedient fingers that type it incorrectly, or a learning disability of some sort that prevents you from remembering the differences.  Beta, beta, beta. That's what those wonderful people are for. Anyone who knows him or herself to have issues like that should always have another set of eyes go over a fic before posting it.  Off the top of my head, I can think on one author who is out of this world good at writing wonderful, funny, angsty, well-plotted stories with great characterizations.  She also cheerfully admits to sucking at spelling and punctuation. However, she has an excellent beta who patiently cleans up the mechanical issues for her so that what the reader sees is both an amazing story and one that is readable. If that's you, don't cheat yourself out of a wider readership by neglecting to use your own wonderful beta to help your story shine.

Here's something else to remember, (thanks go to Megan, who reminded me of this when she beta'd for me) - numbers that have less than three digits are to be written out. So one, two, fifteen, twenty-five, ninety-nine and one hundred are written out.  2,000? 545? or even 126? It's OK to use numerals. I used to be really bad about this (is lazy), so I'm sympathetic, but that's how it is.

I will probably continue to edit and add to this thread as I come across things in the fics I read. If it ends up here, and you were doing it, don't take it personally. I'm only putting up things that I see often enough to know that they are common errors.

Edited/added 10/18/08  One thing we're seeing more and more of lately (and, yes, in this case I AM talking about fics submitted here) are stories with really poor characterizations.  I have no idea if it's that the authors haven't actually seen (and watched and rewatched) the show enough and are basing their characterizations on other poorly-written fanfic that they've read; if they want to write what they want to write and don't know or care if they're having the characters say and do things that make the average reader go "huh?"; or if they simply think it's not important. But, the whole point of fanfic, and the reason people read it, is that readers want to read about the characters they know and love having more or different adventures than those we already know about.  If the fic has characters that are unrecognizable as Spike, Buffy, Willow, Xander, whoever, it is not fanfic anymore.  Please be aware that having Spike say "Bloody hell" every other sentence, or Buffy saying something isn't "mixy" is not going to make up for having them behave in ways that are completely out of characer. 

Overdoing the common traits of the characters (usually stuff like the above expressions) is as bad as not having them at all. A really good author who has captured the essence of the characters can get through an entire story without having Spike utter one "bloody hell".  It's the whole feel of the character we need/want to read - not just some easily recognized phrases shouted at random intervals.  Please know these characters before you try to write them.  You wil have your own idea of what each is like - as do we all - but there must be a resemblance to the characters we met on the show. Simply giving a character the physical characteristics, or putting some frequently-used words in his or her mouth is not going to get it done.

  This seems to happen most often (although we find it everywhere) in PWP fics.  A certain amount of OOC behavior is to be expected in an off-canon PWP, but it is the author's job to make it believable for at least the duration of the story. This is often easier said than done, but it can make the difference between a genuinely hot fic and one that is BAP (bloody awful porn).  Simply expecting the audience to accept whatever situation you present them with just because it's Spike and Buffy and we all know that they spent a few months having a lot of sex during Season VI is NOT going to get the job done. You must make us believe.  Perhaps it's not important everywhere, but for this site - we prefer not to put up PWP or BAP for no better reason than that some readers will read anything with sex in it whether it's good or not. There are other places for that.

We rarely reject fics outright for poor characterization, but we have, and we will continue to do so as long as having recognizable characters is one of our stated criteria.  So, please, if you are new to the fandom (or even if you aren't, but you're new to us) ask your beta to look at your characterizations (all of them - not just Spike) with a hard eye and to be honest with you if they are shaky.


 

 

 

I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
Feb 03 2007 06:07 am   #2Caro Mio

I looked up an A-Z list of homonyms (words that sound alike) to help with the confused words subject.  http://www.cooper.com/alan/homonym_list.html

And this site is an extensive resource of common errors in English usage, like "accept vs. except", etc.:  http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/errors.html

What If I'm Not the Slayer? now updated with chapters 22 and 23.
Feb 03 2007 08:57 am   #3GoldenBuffy

Here are two links I think can help also.

Thesaurus

Dictionary

 

And in the air the fireflies
Our only light in paradise
We'll show the world they were wrong
And teach them all to sing along
Feb 03 2007 06:19 pm   #4slaymesoftly

Thanks, Caro Mio - those are the kinds of resources we try to add to the RRU memories as much as possible.  For my daily doozies I usually just pull two or three at a time and post them.  It's always good to have the full list to which writers can be referred, though. 


GB - Thanks - I didn't click on those links yet, but they should be useful too.  Some writers can dig themselves a pretty big hole by relying too much on a thesaurus without cross checking with the dictionary for the actual meaning of the new word, and with luck, an example of how to use it. But most definitely important resources, both of them.

I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
Feb 03 2007 11:09 pm   #5Diabola

Yes, there are two entries missing here, and this one was replaced with this note. Why? Let's put it this way: Someone had a very stressful day and took those tips the wrong way. Some ranting ensured, followed by some biting back. I just received an email where the original ranter appologized and explained the situation. They also asked for the rant to be removed, for which I'm very grateful, because I wouldn't want it to lead to a fight in a writing tips post of all things. Thank you for giving me that permission, otherwise I would probably have spent several hours worrying if I can just delete it without offending people. I also deleted the two direct reactions to that rant (deleted one and I'm currently replacing the other to tell the truth).

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits." - Albert Einstein
Feb 03 2007 11:40 pm   #6slaymesoftly

LOL, Dia. We must have been typing at the same time.  Nicely put.

Caro Mio, I should have been clearer about the fact that I was listing homonyms (homophones); we actually have a separate list of frequently confused words that is somewhat separate from the homonym list. Words like conscience/conscious, weary/wary, clamor/clamber - confusion that is not a result of using the wrong version of words that sound alike.  Some of the RRU posts are quite long and I was trying to put up shorter versions here.  With the misundertandings that seem to have already occurred, I guess I'd better just copy/paste the entries just as they are on the community. :)

I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
Feb 04 2007 04:55 am   #7Caro Mio

No prob...that second URL has tons of common errors like that on the list. I figured both of those would be easy ones for authors to reference in their online favories.

What If I'm Not the Slayer? now updated with chapters 22 and 23.
Feb 04 2007 07:47 am   #8LadyYashka

Well as a dyslexic I want to thank you guys for posting these writing tips. It took me months to find a beta and I was always happy when someone was kind enough to mention when I had messed something up. That way I could go and fix the mistakes. (I mixed up "oath" and "oaf" one time.) 

 These tips are a great help to me because I often mix up words or punctuation. One beta I have is trying to get me to master commas. :lol: It might happen, you never know. So keep the tips coming! I've been referring to them quite a bit. :)

Tomorrow may be hell, but today was a good writing day, and on the good writing days nothing else matters. — Neil Gaiman
Feb 04 2007 02:59 pm   #9slaymesoftly

CM - the more resources that we list, the more options writers will have - so keep those useful url's coming.

LY - You're more than welcome. Commas will be coming up soon -although, that could be a pretty lengthy post. I think, on RRU it is broken down into the different reasons for using them; but I plan to put something up today.

I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
Feb 04 2007 04:29 pm   #10The Space Between

Caro is using one of my avatars! *grin*

 

Hee! I was just uttery amused by that...sorry for hijacking the thread! :)

~*~ The Powers offer no sympathy for the way things are...Human deeds are left in human hands. It's what one does with what's left that makes any difference ~*~ Jenny Calander as created by HollyDB
Feb 04 2007 11:48 pm   #11Joyce
What bugs me as a reader is when the beta cannot catch the correct differentiation between lose and loose. It is all too common in fanfic. I'm enjoying the fic but inwardly I groan.
Feb 05 2007 12:55 am   #12slaymesoftly

Hee! - everyone has their own pet peeves when it comes to the misused words that bug them the most. I'm toying with posting the entire homonym list, as well as the entire frequently confused words list, but I'm not sure I want to.  There are plenty of places people can go to learn the differences - and, needless to say, a beta should be catching that kind of thing.

I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
Jun 16 2007 09:30 pm   #13eve

Slaymesoftly nudged me to post this link here too, so I bring it over from the "falling on deaf ears" thread.

One program that also helped me was a recommendation from Deedo. You all probably know it already, but I'll post the link below. It really helped me when I beta'd or wrote my own stuff and was lost for words and looking for synonyms and such. And it's FREE

http://wordweb.info/
Jun 16 2007 09:43 pm   #14maryperk

I never knew that thing about the numbers.  I'll have to mention it to Tasha next time we talk.  Thanks.

Jun 17 2007 03:57 am   #15Eowyn315

Another thing related to numbers, maybe this is common knowledge, but might as well throw it out there... no matter how many digits it has, if a number is the first word in a sentence - spell it out!

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jun 17 2007 05:00 am   #16slaymesoftly

Good point, Eowyn! That's one of those things that just seems intuitive - but probably isn't.  Thanks!

I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
Jun 17 2007 08:29 am   #17Coquine

Sorry, I just have to toss in my two pennies here, because...grrr.

Irregardless.

ARGH.  There.  Is.  No.  Such.  Word.

Jan 02 2008 12:24 am   #18jess2357

Wow - just came to the forum to make a point, and it's already here! Loose = not tight. Lose = misplace. Have so far found this error in four separate stories today, and in all the two were being consistently misused. This is very annoying, as it can actually make a difference to the overall meaning of a sentence. Having said that, at least three of my university lecturers had the same problem, so I really should be used to it.

On the "another thing coming" point though - this is a real phrase. It is an illogical, bad phrase, I'll give you, but nonetheless, it is one that is actually used by a large proportion of the English-speaking world. Hence, I feel that it is fair for people to use it as part of dialogue - cockney rhyming slang also makes no real sense, but it can still true to the character's voice. I agree that in narrative though, "think" is better. Feel free to argue the point if you disagree/ know that I am wrong. 

Jan 02 2008 12:35 am   #19Spikez_tart
when the beta cannot catch the correct

Sad to say, the Beta may correct, but the writer may not follow through with corrections.  Loose and Lose mistakes really make my teeth hurt.

Jess - isn't the expression "have another think coming" ?

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Jan 02 2008 12:49 am   #20slaymesoftly

Hey, jess - we went into the "thing" "think" question in much greater detail on the Riters_R_Us live journal and it turned into a big thing. There was the possibility of bloodshed. LOL

  The actual expression (which I will defend with my dying breath) is "if you think......(whatever), you've got another think coming."  In other words, if that's what you think, you need to think again.  Seems simple, and is backed up by most of the sources we looked at.

However, in the rather lengthy course of the discussion on LJ, and with much citing of sources and checking of authorities, it appears that there are many people who grew up hearing (seeing?) it as "another thing coming".  Since it clearly means the same thing to those people as the original phrase does to to the rest of us, it really doesn't matter that much.  Just one of those things that varies from region to region or family to family.  Interestingly enough, there was just as much variety among the members from the UK as there was in this country; so it isn't a British vs American thing.  It's all in what you grew up with.

I like your idea that it could be used in dialogue; but stick to the logical version in narrative.  You're a born peacemaker. LOL


And, yes, tart - there's not much a beta can do if the writer doesn't follow through on corrections.  I would see a consistent pattern like that as a reason to quit - but I'm cranky that way.  :)

I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
Jan 02 2008 11:43 pm   #21jess2357

Not cranky, fair. I'm not a natural writer like you guys, and so being a beta is all I can offer the community. If I'm ignored, but still mentioned in the AN, then I may be judged as a bad beta. Sounds pathetic, but I take pride in my small part, and wouldn't want other prospective authors to be put off. Admittedly, my forum posts don't always sell me either, but then I don't spend hours re-working them. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't mind if some suggestions were ignored, but absolute mistakes like lose/loose aren't really a discussion thing. Opinions?

Jan 02 2008 11:54 pm   #22slaymesoftly

Absolutely, Jess!  If your name is going on it, you have a right to expect it to reflect the work you put into it.  I differentiate between suggestions about plot or writing style things, which I consider optional, and mechanical corrections that MUST be made.  There is no discussion about those most of the time. A writer who is knowledgeable enough to argue about comma placement or whatever, probably isn't making that many errors anyway. LOL

Obviously spelling is spelling and except for differences between countries, it's pretty cut and dried. It's either right or it's wrong.

I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
Jan 04 2008 02:18 am   #23Spikez_tart
There was the possibility of bloodshed.

The Tart backs away slowly with hands raised.

Jess and Slayme - this is precisely the problem.  Your writer wants to be grateful and thanks you, but they left in mistakes that you corrected.  I suspect part of the problem may be writers who got excited about writing because of their television experience, but don't have a deep background in reading. 

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Jan 04 2008 03:57 am   #24slaymesoftly

Excellent point, Sztart - If you read a lot (especially good stuff) you just kind of absorb some of what works.  I said that somewhere in a post (probably on LJ), that people who want to write need to do a lot of reading of all kinds of fiction and then try to learn for themselves the difference between what's good and not so good.

I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
Aug 28 2009 10:14 pm   #25Caro Mio
I see this in every level of writer and it bugs the heck out of me:

shined (v): past tense, to make something brighter, like shoes or a bald head.
shone (v): past tense of all other uses of “shine” (such as, The moonlight shone over our nighttime walk last night.)

In most cases, it should be "shone"!!!
What If I'm Not the Slayer? now updated with chapters 22 and 23.
Aug 30 2009 03:04 pm   #26All4Spike
Being English, one of the things that bugs me most is when US or other non-British writers try to make either Giles or Spike (usually Spike) use an exclamation in 'British slang'... and get it wrong. :tsk:

The most common misuse I can think of is when 'Bugger all' or 'Sod all' are used as stand-alone exclamations of disgust or dismay. Both actually mean 'nothing'... as in: "It had sod all to do with that."  or: What had he got? "Bugger all".

The correct exclamation should be "Bugger it!" or  just plain "Bugger!"... and "Sod it!"... occasionally prefixed with an "Oh,".

I know that I sometimes get the American slang used by the young Scoobies wrong... 'cos I'm neither American or young... A Beta of the reverse nationality should be able to pick up on such simple errors. (I would be quite happy to advise on British slang, usage, etc)
:spuffy:


Love's a funny thing...
Sep 01 2009 02:10 am   #27slaymesoftly
Excellent point, All4Spike.  A beta from the other side of the pond is a very useful thing for a writer. Even if all the person does is run their eyes over the completed fic to check for misinformation about geography, accents, cultural stuff.  All those things are easily corrected if caught early.  My wonderous betas - Always_jbj and Just _Sue keep me straight with the Britishisms, and Sue keeps me from making other errors when I set a fic in the UK and include something that just couldn't or wouldn't happen in that country.  Ditto for UK writers who must, alas, set so much of their work in the US - and in southern California besides - practically a whole other country in itself. LOL
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
Dec 18 2009 07:18 pm   #28Caro Mio

FORMATTING NUMBERS IN CREATIVE WRITING


If you pick up a newspaper and a novel, you’ll find that numbers are treated differently in each. A newspaper, for example, uses AP style, while most publishers of creative writing follow The Chicago Manual of Style. And while each publisher has its own modified in-house style guide, there are some basic rules you can safely follow for handling numbers in your text.

Spell out whole numbers from one to ten. I found seven mistakes in your essay.

Use numerals after ten. She noticed 37 spotted deer and 46 squirrels.

Round numbers should be spelled out. This year, twenty thousand people are expected to show up. More than six million people crowded the desert city in 2002.

Spell out the number if it is the first word in a sentence. Twenty-four hours are not enough. Nineteen forty-two was a banner year for the company.

Spell out simple fractions, and use numerals for mixed fractions. Altogether, we walked two-thirds of a mile. Use 3¼ cups of milk.

Always use numerals with a.m. or p.m. but spell them out with “o’clock.” It is 6:00 p.m. They'll arrive at seven o’clock tomorrow.

Use numerals to emphasize exact times of day. Catch the L train at 6:23 sharp.

Use a hyphen to join words in compound numbers. The alarm is set for six forty-five.

Spell out the “percent” symbol in creative copy and use numerals. She found 70 percent of the pieces.

For organizations and products, follow the organization's style. 7-Eleven, Six Flags

Use numerals for decimals. Measure it to .09 inches.

Stay consistent within a sentence unless the numbers are unrelated. I needed 6 new patients, not 60! OR: I needed six new patients, not sixty! I have 60 new patients but only three new nurses.

Some other examples:

SPELLED OUT
a hundred years
the nineties
a hundred dollars

NUMERALS
107 years
'90s or the 1990s
$2.39
Highway 66
3198 Main Street
pages 35-37
What If I'm Not the Slayer? now updated with chapters 22 and 23.
Dec 19 2009 12:04 am   #29slaymesoftly
Some publishing houses want all numbers less than one hundred to be spelled out. I think that is a safer and more correct piece of advice.  Don't know what the Chicago Style Manual says, but that is the manual that the house I work with uses, so I would assume their guide reflects those recommendations.  All the rest is great information and very useful.

ETA Updated 2/6/14 to reflect that the CMoS suggests spelling out all two digit numbers. Exceptions made in scientific papers and other places like that. Newspapers use their own styles, usually designed to save as much space and ink as possible without losing clarity, and probably aren't great examples for fictions writers to be using. 
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
Dec 20 2009 11:40 am   #30Sotia
Not sure this goes here, but I'll delete it if it doesn't. Something I see in published fic as well is that people keep writing I could care less, instead of I couldn't care less. These two are not interchangeable; the first one actually defeats the purpose.
What can I tell you, baby? I've always been bad...
Dec 20 2009 02:50 pm   #31slaymesoftly
That's quite true, Sotia (although it probably belongs on some other thread - I can't think of which one ATM). However, saying it that way is so deeply ingrained that I doubt it will ever change.  I suspect that it was originally meant as sarcasm "It's possible that I could care less, I just don't see how" and has been shortened through the years to just "I could care less", which, as you point out, is saying the opposite of what the speaker really means.  Since so many people do say it like that, I'm not sure it would be incorrect for an author to use it that way in dialogue - it could be very much in character for that particular person.  I may bring it up on RRU, if you don't mind being quoted there. :)
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
Dec 20 2009 08:04 pm   #32Sotia
I don't mind at all. I remember when I first heard it I found it irrational, so I looked it up and found this, which made me feel all happy :)
What can I tell you, baby? I've always been bad...
Feb 03 2013 06:00 pm   #33All4Spike
I'm coming back to revive this thread after yet another screaming fit at a glaring error.

Not for the first time, I have come across a character saying something silently - although from the context it is clear that the author really means quietly.

I suspect that this is another symptom of a writer using a thesaurus inefficiently, something that really should be picked up and corrected by a beta.

:grr:

Love's a funny thing...
Feb 04 2013 12:46 am   #34slaymesoftly
I'm coming back to revive this thread after yet another screaming fit at a glaring error.

Not for the first time, I have come across a character saying something silently - although from the context it is clear that the author really means quietly.

I suspect that this is another symptom of a writer using a thesaurus inefficiently, something that really should be picked up and corrected by a beta.

:grr:



ROFL - it's nice to see it where it can be noticed again. Some things bear repeating. :)
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
Feb 04 2013 01:19 am   #35Spikez_tart
Can I just add on the silently/quietly question that there is no reason to have characters whisper if there is no one else to hear them talking. 
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Feb 07 2013 02:39 pm   #36All4Spike
And here I am again with another irritant.

Two more similar words with completely different definitions which are regularly confused.

Discrete = separate or distinct (as in 'the contract had three discrete clauses' )
Discreet = Private, unobtrusive or circumspect (as in 'he made discreet enquiries' )

Love's a funny thing...
Feb 06 2014 06:49 pm   #37slaymesoftly
And here I am again with another irritant.

Two more similar words with completely different definitions which are regularly confused.

Discrete = separate or distinct (as in 'the contract had three discrete clauses' )
Discreet = Private, unobtrusive or circumspect (as in 'he made discreet enquiries' )



Just piping in to bump this up to the forum list. 
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.

 Closed