BSV Forum - General - The Bloodshedpub

Riley was a bastard in "As you Were"

Feb 10 2007 04:14 pm   #1Scarlet Ibis

Okay, the long and short of it?  I read that Riley set Spike up on the demon eggs thing- wonderful essay.  Basically, wanted to see who disagreed with that?

“Captain Cardboard, or How I Learned to Stop Seething and Love ‘As You Were’ ", although, I will never love it, or like it for that matter: http://theohara.livejournal.com/162286.html

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Feb 10 2007 06:15 pm   #2GoldenBuffy

Oh, I agree with you. And Buffy was so worried about how he felt, like everyone else, and so think in the head that she as alsways took it out on Spike. Bitch and Riley's a bitch too.

And in the air the fireflies
Our only light in paradise
We'll show the world they were wrong
And teach them all to sing along
Feb 10 2007 06:45 pm   #3slaymesoftly

I didn't read the essay, although I imagine it was very good as most of the OHara's things are; however, don't forget that Spike had just told Buffy not long before that episode that he could "get money" for her so that she wouldn't have to work at the Doublemeat.   And he never denies that he has the eggs, he is obviously sleeping upstairs, and I can't think of a thing in canon that even suggests that Riley was setting Spike up. He had no reason to, as he didn't know about Spike and Buffy until he walked in on them.  There are a lot of fanfics written with that theme, but I think it is just a fanon concept, not one borne  out by show transcripts.

I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
Feb 10 2007 06:54 pm   #4Scarlet Ibis

Slaymesoftly,

In the following ep "Hells Bells," Buffy begins to tell Spike how she deserves punishment of some kind, which gives me the impression that she was wrong about something... That's my own personal observation.

If you think back on it, there are many scenes in it that allude to the fact that Riley was very much aware of what Buffy had been up to.  His first stop isn't at her house, the Magic Box, Xander's, Giles, Joyce's gallery or any place like that, but he just magically knows she's working at the Doublemeat Palace?  The opening scene of that ep, where Spike approaches her in the front yard by the tree, the camera pulls back, and there's this long shot, as if someone were observing them from across the street.  And if this "Doctor" was so dangerous, then why would Riley seek him out alone, leaving Buffy behind, who's clearly more aware what's been going on in Sunnydale the last several months, and she's the muscle.  And if Spike were conconcting some huge deal like that, why was he sitting down reading a book?  And afterwards, wouldn't he be in some sort of huge debt for not delivering the product?  Instead he's at home, looking over the burned remains of his place.  (I borrowed all that from the essay- it's better stated there).  That whole ep was retarded, and I hate Riley, but hated Buffy more for automatically siding with him- he who lied and abandoned her in the past.

 

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Feb 11 2007 01:41 am   #5Spikez_tart

Wow Scarlet, that was a mouthful.  I did see a fanfic which exonerates Spike, and has Dawn point out that mostly major international weapons dealers have cell phones, which Spike doesn't.  And, there's certainly a connection between Spike saying he can get money so Buffy doesn't have to work at the Doublemeat (ooo, shivers).

In opposition to all the good points you made:

1.  Riley was in Beliz, which is a hell of a long way to go just to take out one vampire, no matter how much you hate him.

2.  Riley has his wife with him.  He'd have to pull the wool over her eyes, too, and she seems fairly intelligent in spite of marrying Riley.

3.  Spike plainly knows that the eggs are in his basement because he and Buffy are going at it on top of a sarcophagous, rather than in his bed, and because as soon as Riley accuses him, he says "I can explain." 

I still hate Riley for showing up with his wife, for not telling Buffy right away that he's married and letting her think he came back to see her, for falling in love about six months after he blows town, for giving Buffy a hard time about Spike which then makes her leave Spike and for so many other reasons. 

 

 

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Feb 11 2007 03:07 am   #6slaymesoftly

Hee! I seem to be picking on SI  this weekend.  We don't know where Riley's first stop was - when watching the epi, I just assumed that he had stopped by the house and been told where to find Buffy. I would never have taken that to mean that he had been spying on her.  And, unless he was including Sam in his "let's set up Buffy's vampire boyfriend" plot, he would have had a hard time explaining why he was running around Sunnydale the night before without letting Buffy know he was there.  Spike may well not have been the Doctor - I've seen lots of fanfics with good explanations for why he was holding the eggs that do not include his being the mastermind - but he was holding the eggs and he was doing it for the money.  I'm not necessarily a Riley fan, and he was definitely not right for Buffy, but I just don't see him going to all that trouble. If he wanted to get Spike away from her, he could have done as he threatened back in season V and just walked in and staked him for touching her. he could have done that before he even let Buffy know he was in town - if he had any reason to let her know after he eliminated Spike.  The demon was real, as were the eggs - that's a pretty elaborate and dangerous set-up just to discredit Spike. That's my theory and I'm sticking with it. lol


I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
Feb 11 2007 05:28 am   #7Scarlet Ibis

Okay, not saying that Riley came back for the sole purpose of setting up Spike.  Just saying that when he came, he was unpleasantly surprised at what he saw, and altered his mission a bit.  Anywho, there is no way that I can possibly be as eloquent and have information as well put as in Theohara's essay, which is why I urge you guys to read it and please post a comment on whether or not your position has changed.  Reading that essay was like a moment of clarity, because I hated that episode sooooooooo much.  I hate Riley, and that ep, and Buffy too in that instance, and it made me want to heave.

And slaymesoftly- you are really not picking on me- I enjoy the debates and whatnot

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Feb 11 2007 07:30 pm   #8Spikez_tart

It was an excellent essay, and I agree that Riley was way more involved in the whole thing than is immediately apparent.  Still, Spike wasn't a complete innocent either.  Unfortunately, JW dropped the ball and never explained what happened.

Buffy dumping Spike part was hurl worthy, but she broke up with Spike because she knew she was mistreating him and for once, put what she felt was best for Spike, ahead of what she wanted.  Can't fault her there. 

 

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Feb 11 2007 07:44 pm   #9Scarlet Ibis

Maybe she did dump him because she knew she was hurting him.  But why hurt him further with comments like "I can be alone with you here" or"I believe it's real- for you."  WTF? Basically, all she was saying things like that, it's like "Look here, I just don't give a damn about you.  You don't exist to me. Accept it and move on."  It wasn't necessary.  It was mean spirited and wrong, especially to say to someone who loves you.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Feb 12 2007 05:27 pm   #10The Space Between

Sometimes honesty hurts.

The whole "I can be alone with you here" I think was taken out of context. Just one of those things said that didn't come out right or sounded worse out loud that inside your head. We've all done it and we know Buffy did it often, blurting something out without thinking first.

I don't think she was trying to be mean when she said she believed it was real to him... think about her frame of mind then. She didn't believe it because its what she was taught to believe and she was holding so tightly to those teachings that she wouldn't allow herself to believe it but she at least acknowledged that feelings where there, even if it was only on his part, enough for him to believe in them.

Don't forget, during Xander and Anya's non-wedding, Buffy admitted that she was a bit jealous and that it hurt seeing him there with someone else -- she's human and she is flawed and when she is scared and hurt, she pretends otherwise. Its called self-preservation. She did it a lot...too much sometimes, but regardless, Buffy is only a screwed up human. Only thing that makes her different from all of us is that she can kick all our asses without breaking a sweat or a nail.

~*~ The Powers offer no sympathy for the way things are...Human deeds are left in human hands. It's what one does with what's left that makes any difference ~*~ Jenny Calander as created by HollyDB
Feb 13 2007 12:02 am   #11Scarlet Ibis

True, but if Buffy gets to be flawed, why can't Spike?  Everyone expected him to be perfect and all the time, and even if he came close to that, doing the patrols, taking care of Dawn, etc., it still wasn't good enough, and that's what troubling.  Exceptions for Buffy, Xander and Willow, but everyone else gets a higher standard?  That's just not right.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Feb 14 2007 01:16 pm   #12SpikeHot

Maybe because Spike doesn't have a soul others can't trust him enough. It's also sad that no one considers him a friend, even Dawn was more close to Tara and the other Scoobies after Buffy came back. I think this is because Spike doesn't seem to care for the Scoobies' friendship. He only cares what Buffy thinks of him. That is why Buffy was able to give him a second chance in season seven.

Everyone was given a second chance. When Anya returned to be a vengeance demon, she was given second chances from Xander and the others because she's their friend. Willow was given a second chance as well. Buffy was the only one to give Spike a second chance when he came back in season seven, I think it's because of the soul and that she knew him better than the others.

Feb 14 2007 04:20 pm   #13The Space Between

Oh I definitely agree Scarlet. That whole summer Buffy was dead, I am writing about that and I'm showing my version of what I think happened based on the small comments here and there the Scoobs made.

It will also, hopefully, help to explain why Spike was so hurt and kind of withdrew from everyone except Buffy after she was brought back.

As far as everyone else, they all have their own reasons why they don't trust Spike. Some of them have merit and some dont. With Willow, he tried to eat her twice...he kidnapped her and then attacked her in her dorm room so yeah she can feel antsy around him. Its only natural. With her though, I don't really think that she doesn't not trust him. I think with Willow its more just being uneasy considering their history; I mean she does sort of stick up for him when Spike tried to bring flowers around when Buffy's Mom died and even after he attacked her in her dorm room, she was trying to be supportive and considerate when they found that he couldn't bite her. I just think Willow doesn't stick up for him more because hey! Her two best friends and father figure are spouting off all the time about how evil and horrible he is so Willow just tends to keep quiet.

Xander...he has issues. He loses his best friend to vampires and then he has to stake him which is pretty traumatic...but after that...its all jealousy I think. Spike makes Xander feel inferior because he's smart and charming and good-looking and smooth with the ladies--all the things Xander doesn't think he, himself, is and wants to be. He had a crappy homelife and upbringing and pairing that with the Jesse thing and his insecurities and jealousy...makes for a pretty irrational and bigoted Xander. Xander's biggest enemy is himself and that boy is gonna need a lot of facing up to his fears, owning them if you will, before he can even begin to see how screwed up he is. For him, that is the only way he is going to come to terms with everything he's said and done over the years. --sidenote--From what we learned about the Scoobs after Chosen: I think Anya's death was the catalyst for Xander. His black & white upbringing was solidified and hatred grew with the death of one loved one (Jesse) and was only able to finally be put to rest with the death of another (Anya). That is why I think they had Xander living the nomadic life and living in Africa and moving about and such. He had to grow up in a huge and painful way.

Giles... *sigh* My problem is that I just like Giles. He's suave and sexy in his own right and the man has an enormous intellect but with that he is also rigid and suffers from horrible tunnel-vision. He's like a starving dog with a bone. He latches on to one thing and has a hard time seeing the larger picture when it comes to those he cares about. I mean its hard not to admire that kind of devotion but at the same time, it also causes a lot of un-neccessary pain because he becomes so focused on one point that he misses the bigger picture. He also has a hard time letting go. I mean, yeah he went to England twice so that Buffy could learn how to stand on her own two feet and he had to go so far away because otherwise he would be tempted to continually step in and take over for her and I think that comes into play a lot, especially in late season 7 when he is determined to dust Spike when he becomes an instrument of the First. I really think he was trying to save Buffy the pain and anguish of possibly having to kill Spike herself. Let's not forget that the First Evil was mucking things up and people were dying left and right, both innocents and potentials and they had no clue how to stop it so with the stress of that along with Spike being puppetted...Giles screwed up BIGTIME.

Truthfully, they all need therapy in a baaaad way...

~*~ The Powers offer no sympathy for the way things are...Human deeds are left in human hands. It's what one does with what's left that makes any difference ~*~ Jenny Calander as created by HollyDB
Feb 14 2007 06:04 pm   #14Scarlet Ibis

Space, I agree, but it's the fact that they're all flip floppers (I just love that silly term) when it comes to Spike.  Xander is jealous and bigoted, etc., and yet he admires Spike's coolness, and saw fit to rescue him (after trying to tell Willow to let him commit suicide if he wanted to).

Then Willow, who yes, was attacked by Spike twice, was still trying to save him from a self staking- cause it was "ooky" and she knew him.  What does that even mean?  If he was so evil, then why not let him end up a pile of dust?

And Giles (who Spike saved btw, nefarious reasons or not), who spent a lot of quality time with the vampire.  He only treated Spike bad when he was annoying Buffy or was seemingly a hindrance to her in slaying.  Otherwise, they were kind of friends.

Joyce too, she clearly enjoyed his company, but when she learned that he was interested in her daughter... it was all over.  Come on, he so wasn't Angel.  I was hoping Joyce would've known better.

Then here comes Xander again with the flip flopping, eventually agreeing with Buffy's decision to help save Spike from the First's control, while bitchy Dawn and Anya are like "why doesn't she just slay him" blah, blah, blah.  I really admired Xander in s7, btw, though I was shocked when he was on the side of "throw Buffy out of her own house," but then at the same time, I think they all had a point, and Buffy wasn't helping with her boring speeches about rushing to the Death's door (even if she was right, she could've presented it better).  I dunno, I just felt that she should've told them to leave her house if they didn't agree with her, instead of kicking her out.  Yea okay, I have no idea where I was going with all of that...

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Feb 14 2007 07:16 pm   #15The Space Between

LOL Nah I agree about the tossing of Buffy. It needed to happen...I just wish it came about in a different way.

She needed a kick to her posterior because even though she was trying and fighting, she still had a defeatist attitude--she was pretty much thinking they were all gonna die regardless of how much they fought but the fighter in her would rather have everyone die fighting than make it easy for the First and lay down and die.

I think her getting tossed out forced her to realize that it wasn't just about leading and planning and stratigizing...she was pretty much forced into seeing that there were people there...not just warriors and seasoned vets of apocalyptic events. It forced her to see things a little bit differently and I think that change of view was what helped her to defeating Caleb and realizing that theirs was a war that could be won. Of course Spike was the hammer that drove that point of view home...so not only did he save the world by destroying the hellmouth, he saved it by helping Buffy to come to terms with things she had a hard time seeing which was instrumental in helping her to find the scythe and whomping Caleb and bringing about Slayers worldwide.

~*~ The Powers offer no sympathy for the way things are...Human deeds are left in human hands. It's what one does with what's left that makes any difference ~*~ Jenny Calander as created by HollyDB
Feb 14 2007 08:52 pm   #16SpikeHot

Space, I agree with your points about the Scoobies and their lack of Spike trust. However, I always thought Willow was sweet and nice to Spike, they just never interacted much after season four. But I don't think Willow hated Spike, she was okay with him. Willow had proved to be a lot more open-minded than Buffy and Xander.

Xander, who I'm fallen in love with right now, has changed a lot during the summer between seasons six and seven. His anger when it came to Spike seemed to gradually vanish. I loved when he gave Spike a pat on the shoulder in Lies My Parents Told Me.

Dawn and Anya on the other hand were extremely against Spike. Xander and Willow showed more faith in Buffy's decision to keep Spike and more trust toward Spike.