You know you have them, everyone does. What are your BtVS and AtS pet peeves? From either the series' or from fan-fic.

I have several small ones, but my biggest one is Xander, he is constantly  referring to Spike as a rapist, when he himself tryed to rape Buffy when he was a hyena, yet no-one ever calls him on it. Just once would I like to read a fic that does.

Okay, I have had my rant, it is time for yours.......

I hate it that Angel always gets cool places to live - his cute little apartment in Sunnydale, the mansion, the semi-cute (well bearable) apartment in LA, then the hotel.

And where does Spike get to live?  An abandoned factory, a crypt and the high school basement over the hellmouth.  Not to mention Xander's basement and chained up in Giles bathtub.  This is just not right. 

Also, if Angel is a vampire and never eats anything, why does he have kitchen utensils in his LA apartment? 

pet peeves - hmmm, do we have a week?  LOL

From the show - yep, the Xander calling Spike a rapist thing has to be right up there. Right along with every character on the show having gone evil at one time or another, and yet only Spike is continually slammed for his former life style.  That's all that comes to mind right now - I really think, in most other aspects, the show was very well done.  I would love to have seen Buffy be a bit nicer to Spike, but if we accept that she was damaged when she came back (and seriously depressed for all of season VI), then her behavior is a bit more understandable.  Maybe they could have had her acknowledge his role in bringing her back into the world  - that would have been nice.

In fan fic?  Oh boy.  Slutty Buffy, wimpy Buffy, submissive Buffy,  I'll come back to this if something else occurs to me.   Wimpy Spike, submissive Spike, or more-dominant-than-a-silverback-gorilla Spike.  Pretty much any character that is written in what seems to me to be very OOC fashion.  Characters have to be tweaked in order to make them fit our stories, but what usually works best is when the author takes some aspect of that character's personality and emphasizes it enough to make the story work, but no so much that the entire personality is lost.  IMHO, anyway. lol

I'm sure I have more fanfic peeves, but I'm ignoring the whole all-human, high school, can't be bothered to proofread or get a beta, wouldn't know good writing if they fell over it stuff. LOL  I'm trying to stick to peeves about fics that I might actually read.

Everything Slaymesoftly said, and bad character voices... Spike, Giles, Wesley sounding American--Buffy and Scoobies etc sounding English...either way is just as bad.

Again in fan fic... cop outs... using a plot device (and usually a very poor one) to make things too easy... like a spell that makes Spike and Buffy fall in love and makes all the Scoobies etc accept that without any qualms... to me that's just not worth reading. And as much as I love bitey and claiming fic... a claim that makes Buffy instantly fall in love with Spike is just as bad... it isn't real... their feelings need to be their own...and yeah, you have to work harder to get there but the end result is worth it. (And, no, I'm not talking about pwp's... although I must say I prefer them to have a level of believability too.)

There are many more... Like Spike using 'Cor' or 'Da', but they are the main ones.

I also hated the way Xander was never held accountable for anything in the show... and it is something I have tried to address in a few of my fics.

Yep, would have to add characters who don't sound like who they are - although, I guess I was sort of rolling that into OOC without being specific. It does throw me out of a fic when a character begins speaking like someone from another country - for me, probably more when the Scoobies sound British than the other way around, just because that would be more jarring. I'm sure for Brits, the reverse would be true. Giles or Wesley sounding too "American" would be more jarring.

And, also, yeah, the claim as instant love.  Uh, uh. Should, IMHO, be the other way around - the claim grows out of the relationship.  Unless there is a very good plot reason for doing it (SpikesKat's LiT, where Spike used it to keep Buffy safe and under control in a dangerous situation). 

I have no problem with claims coming before the love... but not using the claim as an instant fix-all... Kat's LiT is fantastic and even though the claim was there early she allowed their relationship to grow naturally.

"It does throw me out of a fic when a character begins speaking like someone from another country - for me, probably more when the Scoobies sound British than the other way around, just because that would be more jarring. I'm sure for Brits, the reverse would be true. Giles or Wesley sounding too "American" would be more jarring."

I have to agree with that,  one suggestion I would have is British authors have an American beta, and American authors have a British beta

By the way, the original post was mine, I didn't notice I wasn't signed in :D

*nods emphatically* Yep... I agree with that! *hugs my lovely American betas*

I'm sorry this is very long...I'm way too verbose.  Someone is going to institute a word limit for posts. ;)

On the show several things annoyed me, inconsistencies like how the soul issue was applied or not...across the boards.  The various character hypocrisies and often lack of having to own up to actions. (it's my opinion that buffy never really had to own up to being an abusive partner in season six.)  I felt at times characters in the show were written OOC with not enough build up to make their motivations/choices believable.

Despite all that, I still found the show compelling and Buffy and Spike especially compelling.  Compelling enough to write and read fanfic, do fanart, and eventually fanvids.  So that's quite an obsession there over something I have such pet peeves about.

Like Buffy and Spike themselves, I have a love/hate relationship with the show and the characters.

Having said all that...I tend to be pretty forgiving with fanfic.  There are a few things that really annoy me and especially if things are really over the top, but I don't get as bent out of shape about OOC because I figure if paid writers couldn't do any better, why gripe about the fanfic that came from it? An impure source is likely to create impure interpretations.  (But yeah, there is a point where the OOC gets so bad even *I* have to bitch about it...)

One thing that others  have said they don't like that I do like is: submissive buffy or submissive/dominant spike.  (apparently few people have problems with a dominatrix buffy and after season six we can see why I suppose.)

I like submissive Buffy (I don't usually care for dominant buffy because I don't think she has the self control not to abuse although for there to be a submissive spike there must be a dominant buffy, so I digress.) and I like submissive/dominant Spike for several reasons.  

For one thing...the reason I'm drawn to this couple at all is their power struggle.  If the power struggle wasn't there, I wouldn't find the couple compelling (which is probably why I don't normally, with very few exceptions, care for fluffy schmoop).  Although a power struggle can go on forever with no winner, and although there can be a winner for awhile and then the power shift...to me, it seems logical that if these two get involved that one of them will be the more submissive partner at least from a sexual context, and the other will be the more dominant.

It doesn't have to go full out to a kinky D/s relationship, it can remain subtext.  But I think it's there, and I think it was there on the show.  On the show I think Spike was more the submissive most of the time, but I think just as easily in a diff set of circumstances it can be reversed.

I like Buffy vulnerable. (yet strong).  While I will admit part of it might be a desire to punish her for her behavior of season six, a bigger part of me likes Buffy vulnerable because that is when she feels most deeply and is the most honest about who she is.  I can't deal with a dishonest Buffy, and a Buffy that cannot show any hint of vulnerability is not one I care for.

And I don't think her being the submissive party (or spike being the submissve party) in any way makes the submissive party weak.  Knowing what you want, and going for it, is strength, not weakness.  There are times when I don't buy submissive Buffy, but it isn't because I don't think her character is weak enough to be submissive.  I often don't think she's strong enough to be.  (which is oddly why, although I prefer the opposite largely in part because of all the abuse Spike already went through on the show...a submissive Spike is often more believable.)

I'm not saying I don't like fics where they are complete equals, I do...though I think on some level that power struggle is always going to be there if it isn't agreed to in some way.  Because IMO that is who Spike and Buffy are.  One of them might surrender in part or in whole for various reasons, Spike out of his desperate love for Buffy, his love of her power and strength or some other reason not yet discovered...Buffy, to allow her vulnerability to come out and to learn to trust someone not to break her...And also Buffy's desire not to take responsibility.  While not a noble reason for her submission, it is a possible motivator for it.  Because then it's "not her fault"  Although stories that start with this premise I really like Buffy to eventually take responsibility for her actions and not act like she's Spike's helpless concubine with no brain in her head.

But they're never going to split all their bills down the middle and have separate checking accounts.  These two are equals in every way in the grander sense, and they'll always be equals, but they also will struggle for power.  And sometimes one of them might be the dominant party and the other the submissive. 

Hee, Lis - you would copy the un-edited post before I fixed the typo.lol

Yes, the best thing to do is run your finished fic past someone from the other side of the pond.  They don't even have to be a beta-beta, just someone who does a last read-through for you and catches any noticeable problems with language. 

I edited it Patti, so you won't have to worry *grin* I misspelled a word in the original post, but because I wasn't logged on when I posted it, I can't go back and fix it

OK  this isn't so much a pet peeve as something I find hilarious in fics and that is the alleged cooking skills of Joyce.   The evidence I'm told is 1. The meal she cooked Faith, which if you look closely is tater tots and what to me appears to be microwaved meat in gravy.  2.  The recipes she gives Buffy for Thanksgiving,  but the woman had a family recipe for instant mashed potatoes  *rolls eyes* 

LMAO wulfie.  Of all the issues on Btvs and you are concerned with the exaggerated cooking skills of Buffy's mom? hahahahaha OMG.

LOL, don't forget the legendary hot cocoa

Which was prolly Swiss Miss :P

hahaha I know the hot cocoa has been totally blown out of proportion...but I do it too lol.   We've gotten a lot of mileage out of this whole cocoa thing.

Also, on pet peeves, I'm not sure if it's a pet peeve or not...but it's fanon.  A lot of times people write how Angelus is a lot worse now that the demon has been caged by the soul than he was before.  However, everything that happened on the show completely contradicts that.  

In his former history as Angelus, he was raping, pillaging, carving crosses into people's faces and nailing puppies to front doors.  In season two when he's evil he sends roses, draws pictures and kills goldfish.  And yeah he killed Miss Calendar, but seriously he wasn't nearly as bad when he came back as he was purported to be before, which completely contradicts the big of fanon that says otherwise.

When he was Liam, he was a drunken rapist, that is why I always wondered if the soul he was cursed with was his own, and I guess I am not the only one since there are several fics that have the soul originally belonging to someone else.

Right.  Well over on AtS in season one, they specifically stated it was his soul, even checked the transcript, but hell, lots of people pick and choose what parts of AtS they are going to accept as canon, cause at times it contradicts with Btvs.  

I'm really torn on the soul issue with him.  On the one hand I have a hard time believing it's his soul, but then on the other, when you think about it, Angel with a soul is pretty bad.

I guess my pet peeve is Angel in general.  How they ever made an entire show revolve around that character is beyond me.  Never could stand him - can tolerate Angelus much better.

As for the hot chocolate Joyce makes - I have a theory about that.  See she secretly kept some of the band candy, and melts just a bit in each time she makes the hot chocolate.  :D  But really folks, makes perfect sense to me!

I'm with you there.  I don't really care for Angel...although at the same time I liked Ats and as long as he's away from Buffy he's ok, he's at least funnier.

But I MUCH prefer him as Angelus, because at least then he's honest about being a bastard.

As for the band candy and the cocoa...that's a funny fic idea waiting to happen! :)  Or well, I guess the spark of it just happened.  You could turn it into a challenge if you don't want to write it.

I think the hot chocolate is about more than how good, or not, her hot chocolate was... it is about her acceptance of Spike. About her sitting him down and mothering him a little when he was hurting, despite the fact that he is a dangerous vampire. I imagine it could taste like shit warmed up and Spike would appreciate it and be grateful that she treated him like he mattered.

*shrugs* Just my interpretation.

Just stating for the record, I am the Xander fan who walks amongst you :)

I'm also generally not a fan of claiming.  I'll read a claiming fic if it's otherwise good, but I don't really care for it.  And I remain unconvinced that if such a thing existed that Spike and Dru wouldn't already have one.  [Seriously, there's no point arguing this with me ;) ]  I actually have an easier time buying fics where the claim is accidental, intended as some sort of punishment, or a problem the characters are trying to solve.   But it is quite popular and some authors still make it work outside those lines.

Now, I may be completely sack of hammers here...

Angel's soul - original gypsy curse - Someone else's soul

                   - Willow's casting      - his original soul

Makes sense to me, as his whole attitude changed between the souled-up versions.

And MsClawdia your fic really does rock.  Even though you don't do claimy fic, and even though it's generally my preference, it's good for me to read other things too. :)  There are some authors I'll read even if they never write a claimy fic because their stories are worth hearing even if their philosophy on the characters and the verse isn't the same as my own.

Also MsClawdia, not trying to be a psycho argumentative freak here, was giving a counterpoint lol.  But definitely respect your view. :)

Shadow that is a very interesting idea.  What if willow got over ambitious and tried to tweak and translate? Or what if the curse had originally been for the original soul...

Oh also, Shadow, in what ways do you think he changed that made it seem like, after he got recursed that it was his original soul and not a random soul?  What made you think earlier it was a random soul?  I'm interested to hear more!

Actualy Spikeslovebite has a fic with that as part of the plot :P

that sounds awesome wulfie. linky?

Pre-Angelus - he was standoffish, judgemental, cryptic, all with the helping (sorta) and not too heavy into the physical touchy-feely (kept putting Buffy off about having sex)

Post-Angelus - more with the touching (actually walked away cause he COULDNT have sex with Buffy), more self-centered, less with the helping.

All this before AtS... after AtS he was all "my way or no way"

ok, interesting.  Also though, the touchy-feely could have been she was so innocent before, and after he'd already had sex with her...but thereagain it was an even worse idea really to touch her at THAT point after they knew what sex between them would do.

One thing I never understood was why they didn't try to alter the curse in some way to anchor his soul.  I mean they had a freaking spell for every other possible use and the soul curse was a spell to begin with.  Could they  not have gotten rid of the happiness clause? This isn't even from a "Buffy and Angel could have been together perspective" cause Riley had a permanent soul and I don't think HE was right for her either.  

It's really more of a...why would they let him roam free knowing if he got too happy (which surely could happen more ways than just sex.) he woudl lose his soul again.  you would think the scoobies would have been all over anchoring that soul somehow.  The Bangel ship completely aside.

its just something that has always bugged me about Angel...  *shrug*  to be honest I dont think it was the sex that made him happy.  I think it was being completely accepted (sex was just a side-dish). Also, it is canon that who you were BEFORE influences the vampire you become.  Honestly, I can't see Liam being noble and helpful like Angel was pre-soul-loss.  Post-soul-loss Angel did become more "me me me me" (like Liam [or any 2 year old]) even when he did things for others, it was all about him.

Oh and that whole "no touching innocent buffy" sure as hell wasnt Mr. "fuck em against the wall and walk away" Liam. 

There have been several fics written in which Angel loses his soul in other ways - one has Cordy making him happy just because she is willing to be affectionate with him and he's been alone so long, one has him losing his soul when he holds his son for the first time, I'm partial to having him lose by having Dru bite him (hee) - as someone pointed out, it isn't necessary for it to be sex with Buffy that makes him happy enough to lose his soul.  I always thought that was weak- it's pure happiness and that could come at any time from any source.

And don't forget when he lost it by being drugged

Ah, that too. So, yeah, whoever said they should have worked on anchoring the damn thing was absolutely right - but then, they wouldn't have had the same shows, would they?

I have a couple of peeves with fanfic - most of it I love... not high school/all humans but hey each to their own... Unfinished stories drive me nuts!!  I hate not knowing how things end. Also when the characters are so totally OOC that you have difficulty following the story. 

From the show I hate how everthing Buffy does is everybodies business but wht the rest of them do is their own and they are never pulled on it.  Xander - attempted rape/invoked a dancing demon that killed people. Willow - bakes cookies and her magic faux pas is forgiven?

I'm new to this so I hope this is okay?  Bigbird :-)

You did great Bigbird *grin*

Patti,

I also love the fics where Angel loses his soul from Dru's bite.  I also loved the one (can't remember the name of the fic but know which one you are talking about) where he loses it from holding his son for the first time.  To me that's so wonderfully twisted because it's even more innocent a moment then when he was with Buffy.

Shadow,

Good points.  Do you ever get the sense sometimes that the writers didn't know exactly where they were going with the Angel character as far as his history was concerned, until it became conflicting canon? In many ways TV shows are like WIPs and decisions left undecided can really screw with things later.

Also, Welcome Bigbird.  Don't be shy, we don't bite...too hard.

That's exactly it. Shows are a WIP that often have conflicts just because they don't remember every tidbit they wrote before. And all those hands in the kitchen just makes it worse.

As far as I remember, the wording for the curse involves him having a moment of forgetting the guilt he's cursed to carry...so it isn't just happiness that's the problem, but a sense of letting himself go. It's all about his mental state at the time. Angel can screw somebody six ways from Sunday as long as he doesn't forget his obligations.

And I'll say it a hundred times - it's a stupid curse! A vengeance curse, with an escape clause? What the hell is the point of that, Gypsies? Huh? You give him a way out of being tormented by his sins? Of course, the demon Angelus is going to take it! Stupid, freaking curse!

Zoe, that's Niamh's fic, where he loses his soul when holding baby Connor and hands the baby to Wes so they can get away, because he feels it leaving.

Caro Mio

ah.  which fic of nia's?

It was Origins: Revelations

Ah! I'm going to have to read that again then.  Cause I know it's still being updated and I have a lot to catch up on.

My pet peeves? Angel isn't Angelus and everything he did without his soul is not his fault. He always got forgiven for all he did when he was evil. Poor Spike not only had to live with their Angel baggage being thrown at him but he never got the credit he was due for choosing to get his soul. You would think that at least a man as smart as Giles would have been fascinated by a demon choosing to get their soul back. Then again, Spike being constantly brated for his past actions and also for any mistakes he made irriteas me. Spike knows the general basics of what is right and wrong. It's those fine little details in day to day life that screw him up. Everyone is taught those little details. We do not automatically know them and for them to think that Spike should know them is completely unfair. Spike needed to be taught those things but know one seemed to care enough to explain them to him.

O.k this one has more to due with word use than the actual quality of the stories that are written. In some summaries authors use the phrase "wakiness ensues" or "hijinks ensue". I honestly do not know which one bugs me more. Those phrases are like nails being dragged across a chalk board for me. I hate them.

Another thing for me is details.  I want details in a story that I am reading. If major parts are skipped or briefly skimmed over it has been known to bug me. But if those details are being explained to me like I'm five, then it will irritate me also. Here's an example, "On the outside, Buffy looked like any other girl. She was pretty, confident, and had lots of friends. But she was no ordinary girl, for Buffy was the greatest slayer to ever live."

I guess I just want the stories that I read to be well thought out and well written.

Waaaahh  I hate the part where they killed Spike. 

Whedon totally set up the audience with a whole Beauty and the Beast thing with Spike and Buffy, then pulled the rug out at the end by killing him.  I often suspect that part of why Spuffy fic is so popular is because of this ripped off feelings by viewers. 

spikez_tart hehe yeah, well we got our revenge...indefinite freaking episodes baby!!!!!!!!!! yeah!  How much fanfic is there in existence about couples that ended up together? (I can't think of any couples that ended up together in the buffyverse though)

LadyY, I'm fairly certain, that if not in a main summary, I have said hijinks or wackyness ensues.  But I think it was just at the beginning of one Author's Note to introduce the bizarreness that was upcoming.  Or it may have been in response to reviews.  Anyway... *Grate. Grate.*  MUAHAHAHAHAHA (that was my evil laugh.)

OK  first off let me preface this by saying that I grew up on comics and sci fi so maybe my expectations for heros are a bit bigger than most.  That being said I hated how the scoobies treated Spike once they found out he couldn't fight back, and then how they thought he 'betrayed' them at the end of season 4.  Put yourself in his place if your enemies treated you like the scoobs did how would you have reacted.

Also how even among supposed fans when you point out the cruelties to Spike they have the tendency to say "but it's Spike."  Like he wasn't worthy to be treated better.  Sorry you start rewatching the series with season one and to me the only two characters to show <i> positive</i> growth were Spike and Wesley.  The rest either stayed the same or grew less hero like.

But that is just the Wulfe's opinion,  you can disagree, but do you really think I'm wrong :P

*bites tongue hard* I REFUSE to say it!

Not to toot my own horn...but here goes...LadyY I have a fic in progress that lets Giles and Buffy explore what it means that Spike sought his soul.  It's called, "Of Light And Shadow."  And I never thought of Angel as anything but a villian.  Maybe it's just me...I always saw Spike as a hero.

FetchingMadScientist

lol,  but you know the Wulfe rules :P 

You're wrong.

But that's the beauty of fandom, that we can disagree.  :)

 "LadyY, I'm fairly certain, that if not in a main summary, I have said hijinks or wackyness ensues.  But I think it was just at the beginning of one Author's Note to introduce the bizarreness that was upcoming.  Or it may have been in response to reviews.  Anyway... *Grate. Grate.*  MUAHAHAHAHAHA (that was my evil laugh.)"

NNNNOOOOOO! Not those phrases! ::runs away to hide::

"Not to toot my own horn...but here goes...LadyY I have a fic in progress that lets Giles and Buffy explore what it means that Spike sought his soul.  It's called, "Of Light And Shadow."  

I know. ::grins:: I'm reading it. So toot away. ;)

"But that is just the Wulfe's opinion,  you can disagree, but do you really think I'm wrong :P"

Nope, your not wrong. And I'm not afraid to say it. ;)

Lady Y, I think you have got it exactly right.  It is the details that mess Spike up, whereas most of the others miss the whole fraking picture when they go off the deep end.  So have to agree with redwolf there too.

But then again, we are all much the same, judging people by the details.  For example, those of us who say we can't stand a fic where words are misspelled or grammar is poor.  Or ITRW, where you tend to gravitate to people who look, dress, talk, and act the same way you do.  Those are all just details too.

Shadow on Angel's soul, I find your idea very interesting. 

Show wise Dead Man's Party is one of my biggest peeves. Buffy gets called on the carpet for running away by Joyce but not once does Joyce apologize or even mention that she told Buffy not to come back. It also comes out that Xander lied about Willow's message in front of Willow but again it is not addressed. The only person that is held accountable for their actions leading up to that episode is Buffy.  Other things that bothered me are Angel not being responsible for Angelus' actions because Angel was a different person then Angelus, Angel had a soul, and the discrepancy with how Spike was treated, I sometimes wonder if it was the name thing, the Scoobies all got 'real' confused because Spike didn't change his name when he earned his soul ;) .  Xander never having to own up to trying to rape Buffy and Giles helping him with the cover-up; Willow playing around with magic, messing up a lot, and Giles not stepping in to help train her until she almost ended the world; Xander calling up Sweet but never being held responsible for those that died; and Xander's treatment of Anya and Buffy's treatment of Spike in s6, never being addressed.

As for fanfic I am generally pretty forgiving, the one thing and it's not really a peeve as just distracting is what has been mentioned before, the American characters sounding British and vice versa. I particularly notice it with the names of places or things, like Buffy using the word chemist instead of drug store or pharmacy.

I'd like to start by saying that a forum here is a wonderful idea.  True Spuffy and good discussion.  Hope it's okay for me to comment.  This is my favorite fanfic site for Spuffy.

Regarding BTVS, I stuck it through from beginning to end but ONLY because I knew Spike was going to become a regular character.  He brought life back into the series.  I never liked Angel, not on BTVS or ATS.  I always thought of him as self-centered and pompous.  The idea that Angelus and Angel were 2 separate beings????  Give me  break and deliver me from fanwanking B/Aers!  I never appreciated how Joss persisted on weighing Buffy down with her teenage 'twue wuv' feelings for Angel.  IMHO, Joss didn't give Buffy  much emotional growth at all...he kept her emotionally constipated.  I also disliked the Scoobies by the end because they had become so close-minded and self-centered.  It really bothered me how they used Spike during Buffy's absence and literally threw him away once Buffy came back.  And hello....why was Buffy the only gal working to support the household in S6?  Joss et al never thought that it would be bad never showing Willow, Tara or Dawn contributing anything????  I could go on and on.  Thank goodness for fanfic!!!

As far as fanfic is concerned, it irks and hurts when I get involved with a fanfic and it goes along and then....nothing.  I know RL happens and the Muse may take a hike for a bit but some stories should be concluded especially when there are several positive reviews for each chapter.  When it comes to the actually writing, I tend to stay away from human fics, fics that continually have Spike beaten, bashed and sliced open both physically and emotionally.  I think Joss and Marti did enough of this on the show.  I also have a problem with slutty Buffy and overly crude Spike.  A fic can be gloriously NC-17 and make me sit fanning myself and not be 'filthy to the point of depravity.  Hope that makes sense. I love a fic when it builds a nice relationship between Spike and Buffy whether it is before, during or after the sex starts.  I like it when the authors bring Buffy to a point where she 'sees' Spike and doesn't feel the need to hide her relationship.  I, personally, think it makes sense for one superntural being to find love with another one.  Normal can be so overrated.

That's enough for now.  I don't write fanfic but I do enjoy the authors here and I am very happy that Spuffy keeps inspiring all of you to continue writing.  When my days are long and stressful, this place is like a haven for me to come to and catch up with stories I love to read.  Thank you.

Shanna

Yes Wulfie, that's part of why I think I started seeing other characters through the filter of how they treated spike.  He may have started out the anti-hero, but he ended the hero.  He took the Joseph Campellian hero's journey and that is very much a part of why he is so compelling and how the show somehow along the way really came to be more about him than buffy or her "superfriends"

Great contribution, Shanna - good points all.

Cas - got to disagree on the the grammar and spelling thing - they are dammed important details if the reader is to be able to actually understand the story without getting a headache!  

The Wulf rules!  LOL

An ocassional spelling or grammar error I can forgive if the story is otherwise overall well written.  Everybody slips sometimes.  But it DOES break the magic of the story for a bit.  And if it happens often it can kill the enjoyment of the story.

I never meant to say the grammar/spelling thing doesn't bother the heck out of me.  Just that it is a minor thing, more easily taught/learned than good writing, characterization, plot, etc.  The details are important, so much so that sometimes that is all we see, which is sometimes a shame. Does that make sense?

Robyn - Joyce did say she made a mistake or something when she and Buffy finally got around to fighting about.  Lame, I admit.  Yes, tell your 17-year old daughter, who you believe to be about half off her rocker anyway, that she can't come home. That works.

the only two characters to show positive growth were Spike and Wesley.  The rest either stayed the same or grew less hero like.

Here's the head count for Wulfie. 

Buffy - got worse, then got better again and was forced to make pompous General Buffy speeches and put up with Kennedy.

Giles - got worse

Xander - got worse, then plateued at flaming a**hole

Willow - whoa.  She tanked, but then she got better again.

Dawn - got better.  Well, a little bit.

Joyce - croaked

Tara - hired a bad agent, lost her contract and croaked.  She stayed the same.  Started good, ended good. 

Angel - sorta good, really bad, mopey, more mopey, good, sorta bad, let Darla and Dru kill some lawyers - yawn, nauseatingly good (haven't seen all the rest of the episodes.  I still have hope that he'll get dusted.  Don't ruin the surprise.)

Wesley - total wanker, then quite a bit better

Cordelia - bitch, then better in a totally upchucking way.

Harmony - ditz, then she developed into ... Ditz.

Riley - Boy did he belly flop, but then he pined away for Buffy for about six weeks (yeah - he really loved Buffy) and got married and everything was all right.  Sure. 

Wulfie is 99.5% right.

In three words: No.  Epiphany.  Stuck.  'Course, it was done that way because maturing characters are less interesting to audiences who want the stock personality they've come to expect.  But it irks the crap out of me.

In fanfic: 1) Songs imbedded in stories.  2) Any specific entertainment (like a movie, or performing group) that the writer enjoys, and foists off on their characters.  3) Bad researching.  For example, I've read a fic that refers to "Vivalid's Concerto."  Checking even Wikpedia would have shown the writer that Vivaldi wrote several hundred concertos.  4) Silly character tics that apparently have to be included: Giles' cleaning his glasses, Anya's orgasm references.

I like Giles' cleaning his glasses and Anya's orgasms ref. They're funny. I hate it when anyone (like James) suggests that Angel's Buffy true love. I mean hello, if he was her true love you think Buffy would have asked him to watch Joyce and Dawn in season 5 or told him about heaven?

fallen_angel

There, that's one of my pet peeves: True Love!

God, how old are we? As if there was only one possible partner for everyone. As if when one relationship doesn't work out, it wasn't entirely possible to find someone else. True love, The One, designed to be together - those are such junveile concepts. I can accept it being used by the characters, when you're in love it might seem romantic to entertain thoughts like that; but when it pops up in the narrative, when the author tries to sell that to us, it makes me want to scream "Grow up already!".

Otherwise: bad writing, smut for the sake of smut (unless it's a pwp of course), OOC, characters that don't grow up, someone's actions not having consequences, authors that can't be bothered to make sure their plot makes sense, overdone hurt/comfort, too much emphasis on vampiric rituals/traditions/behaviour that was never part of BtVS canon (this one depends on the plot. I don't like it if it suddenly becomes the sole focus of the fic), someone being forgiven everything because they are "family" (I don't have any problems cutting all ties with family-members if they cross the line too often, so I just can't believe that one.), plot-holes, overdone descriptions (pages upon pages of describing someones home, who the hell cares?), ....

Ok, this is turning into a rant, better stop now. Of course everything I listed depends on how well it is integrated in a fic. There are quite a few points that don't bother me at all if they are well done, in most fics it has turned into clichee though, and that's just annoying.

One more thing that doesn't have anything to do with the stories themselves. Reviewers that gush about everything no matter how bad the fic. If they like the fic that fine, but if the grammar is so bad that the fic is barely understandabe they don't do the author any favors by ignoring that. Even worse is, if they go one step further and tell those reviewers that DID mention those problems, to shut up and leave the poor author alone. (And no, I'm not talking about anyone specific. This is just something I have been noticing for a long time now - and on many sites.)

The sanctification of Joyce after her death.

Gimme a break here.  The woman, in season 2, was a drunk, who threw her obviously distressed teenager out, and left her for long periods of time.  Alone.  On her own.  CPS would have had a field day with that shit.

Angel as Champion.

Um.  No.  Not in any universe ever.  Sorry, boys and girls, I never bought the Angel is a good guy theory, and bought it even less as the series (and then AtS) went on.  I've listed my reasons in lots of places, but suffice to say, he was a prick and an ass, and I really, really wish Joss had never decided to make him Irish.  Gives the rest of us a bad name.

Xander as a good guy.

He had his moments, I'll grant you that.  But anyone as narrow-minded and self important and delusional as he was needed to be hit upside his head with a large two by four labeled "reality".  He was never gonna have Buffy fall head over heels in love with him and he needed to be severely disabused of that notion.

Willow as bestest best friend ever!

Yeah, not so much.  I could give you a list, probably a mile long (okay, maybe not that long) about why Willow sucks as a human being.  But then again, maybe all you have to do is read Origins and the rest to figure out what I mean.  The examples of bad Willow far outweigh the good stuff.  And really, there wasn't a whole lot of that at all.

Riley Finn all american hero

How about, Riley Finn, thinly disguised misogynistic neo-nazi?  There was damn little about his character that was of the good.  And hopefully, he got brutally murdered by a demon on South America.

So there's the start of my pet peeves

Dia,  I both agree and disagree with you on the true love concept.  Yeah epic love is overdone, but to me Spike and Buffy are larger than life...so to me their love is larger than life. (i.e. while IRL "This is the person I love, but theoretically I could be happy with someone else if this one didn't work out." is realistic adult love, for Spike and Buffy, IMO they are "the one true love" because it's larger than life fiction and it's a fantasy that while juevenile, many of us think about, not on the level of really believing in it...but on the level of sometimes wishing it were so.)  

For those two fictional characters, I really feel like it is a "one true love" kind of deal.  Not that she couldn't eventually find some way to move on in some way after spike, but he's one of a kind and what they have is one of a kind.

On the good reviews for bad fics, I completely agree.  If a fic is painful to read because it's so OOC even most forgiving authors can't forgive and if the spelling and grammar are so bad no one can stand it...and then that author gets glowing reviews for that story...yeah not doing any favors.

When I see a reviewer like that and then they review something I've written.  I'm in no way reassured that I haven't also written shite.

There is a level of leniency I think most of us extend to authors of fanfic because even completed fics are kind of in a very real sense WIPs because they can always be edited and you're always gonna find a problem.  Just when I think something is as perfect as I can make it, I find some glaring issue or minor annoyance and I know it's never going to be perfect or even close to it.

Niamh,  LMFAO wow, some serious quality rage going there. lol.  Do you think Buffy was a "good guy"?

To be honest I think the only true good guy on that show was Spike (and of course he didn't start out that way.)  He was on the Hero's Journey.  Everyone else was a self-rightous martyr that ocassionally went evil or annoying and wanted to pretend to be a hero.
 (and yes, some of them, like buffy had their genuinely heroic moments, although i'm not sure jumping into the energy to save dawn and the world can ever really make up for the promise of killing all your friends just so dawn can live for fifteen more minutes.)

 Sorry, that was me.  I forgot to log in.

Exactly, FOR them. And I said that I can accept the characters believing it. But fantasy or not, wishful thinking or not, the concept is not realistic, and when the AUTHOR uses it in the narrative it makes me want to put my head through the nearest wall. You don't agree, *shrugs*, this is about pet peeves, and that's one of mine.

um...ok.  I wasn't asking you to agree with me, just telling you what I thought.  A forum topic almost always implies discussion and point/counterpoint.

Also, when you say AUTHOR as opposed to character, do you mean it's fine in your opinion if Buffy and Spike personally as characters believe in the OTL concept and that they are each others OTL but not when the author seems to be pushing a OTL personal agenda?  Or am I misreading.

Because I have read fics where the exposition pushes the OTL concept and it *is* kind of gagworthy.

Exactly. For a preson IN love it is not uncommon to see the world in rose and believe in things like that. But an author should try to have at least some grasp on reality.

Buffy telling Willow that she believes some guy is her one true love? - Makes me snicker at how naive she is, but it's not unrealistic.

The autor telling us that Buffy was much happier with Spike than with Angel because Spike after all was her OTL and the one she was designed to be with? - Will make me stop reading instantly.

 Niamh,  LMFAO wow, some serious quality rage going there. lol.  Do you think Buffy was a "good guy"?

Not really rage, that's just a bit of venting.  If it was rage, certain people's hair would be singeing.  The best answer to whether or not Buffy was a "good guy" is to understand her.  And really, a lot of people just flat out don't understand her at all.  I'm not saying I have a corner on the market, either, so no pot shots for that comment.  Buffy, like everyone has her up and down moments.  What has to be remembered is just how young she is, and how severely, and tragically damaged she was before she became the Slayer. The movie canon aside, Buffy herself was effectively abandoned by both her parents.  Her father physically left them and her mother abdicated all responsibility to hide herself in her work and the bottle.  And rather than believe their teen-aged daughter, they threw her into a psych unit, from where she wouldn't have been released unless she recanted (Normal).  So yeah, she's got abandonment issues, which were only heightened by Angel, and her friends upon her return (Anne).  Added too that her own fears which had to have grown exponentially with every year she continued slaying.  And then, just when she thinks she can trust Giles -- wham -- he drugs her and sets her up to die.  The girl has issues.

But truthfully, the core remains of a hero, albeit one that is severely damaged.  Betrayed by loved ones -- repeatedly -- and when she thinks she's done, she's torn away from what is rightfully her rest -- as she admits in The Gift -- to take up the sword again.  She wasn't prepared to battle again.  She was done.

And therein lies the problem -- or her problem with returning to life in season 6.  I'd like to think in more deft and understanding hands, that season would have turned out much, much differently.  (And hey, self pimp here, I think I did a bang up job of proving it.)

Buffy herself tells the world of her nature, in her conversation with the First Slayer.  "I'm going to be a fireman when the floods roll back".  Funny thing that, from a girl.  And, as a fireman's daughter, I can honestly say, they are real, everyday, true life heroes.  Doing their job when no one else will.  But that's another tangent.

To be honest I think the only true good guy on that show was Spike (and of course he didn't start out that way.)  He was on the Hero's Journey.  Everyone else was a self-rightous martyr that ocassionally went evil or annoying and wanted to pretend to be a hero.

Like any good, real, true hero, Spike never stated but once, that he was a hero. 

He just kept saying, "I made a promise to a lady" or something else along those lines.  So yeah, he was the one on the hero's journey, but he wasn't alone

I don't think of Buffy as a self-righteous martyr.  I've seen those in action, and lemme tell ya, Buffy isn't one of those.  She did her job, not always happily, but she did it.  I mean, c'mon, what 15 year old girl wants to do anything like what Buffy had to do?

(and yes, some of them, like buffy had their genuinely heroic moments, although i'm not sure jumping into the energy to save dawn and the world can ever really make up for the promise of killing all your friends just so dawn can live for fifteen more minutes.)

Do you have children?  Would you do anything -- and I mean anything to protect said child(ren)?  Would you kill someone else to protect that child? Despite Glory's posturing about the Key being evil -- it was just that -- posturing.  Dawn/the Key was no more evil than any other magical, mystical tool.  The intent lies within the user or the magical wielder.  Dawn herself was innocent, like any other child thrust into a situation not of her making.  She was, in effect, a pawn, being used by others for their own gain.  And she was a child.  And Buffy's only real tie, by that point, to her calling.  She had nothing else to give.  She was alone.  Everyone else to that point had already betrayed her more than once, just who was she supposed to protect and defend?  Giles, who tried to kill her?  Xander, who tried to rape her?  Or Willow, who repeatedly f*cked up everything and had to be stopped all the time?  Just who was Buffy supposed to protect here?

hahahahaha Dia, I'm right there with ya LMAO 

Fair enough on all points Niamh.  She was a screwed up person and had issues and most of her issues had nothing to do with being a bad person but being too scared to trust again (and of course every time she did trust, she was taught exactly why that was a bad choice.  Her dad, Giles, Angel, Riley, Willow, Xander, blah blah blah.)

I'm not sure I can see Joyce quite the way you paint her.  Yes, she didn't know what was going on with her daughter and did once have her put in a hospital, and did drink a bit early on, but I don't think her motivations were ever bad.  I don't think she was a bad mother or was abusive.

Sometimes being a hero means you have to chose one person to save over another.  Buffy, at that point, was seeing the world very literally as her sister and no one else.  She was willing to save "her world" by sacrificing everyone else's. 

I see what you are getting at though, because yeah, she did have a higher calling -- but Buffy lays down the law for Giles in The Gift.  She tells him she's done, should anything happen to Dawn.  Hell, Spike knew she was done before anyone else.  He understood what no one else did.  Buffy was at the end of her rope.  She'd been beat down one too many times.  There was no one there for her, but Dawn (because at the time, she refused (or maybe that should read couldn't)  to really see Spike, although he was there with her). 

Her breakdown, just prior, should have been a huge signal to everyone what was going to happen in The Gift.  And everyone should have known what losing Dawn would do to her.  Even if she hadn't jumped, Buffy would have gone off the deep end.  All those fics that have Spike picking up the pieces (if Dawn died instead of Buffy) make perfect sense to me, in the context of Buffy's psyche during season 5.  I could very easily see him picking Buffy up and leaving the hellmouth -- without telling anyone where they're headed.  Much like season 2, when Buffy had lost  everything once before.

To me the biggest issue wasn't even that Buffy was willing to save Dawn at all cost... it was that the others (particularly Giles) were willing to give her up so easily... I can definitely see where Buffy was coming from and why she was so pissed.  Yes, Dawn was her 'sister' but the monk very clearly stated that Dawn was made from Buffy so in all respects she was Buffy's daughter (as Nia demonstrates beautifully in her story). Would Buffy have sacrificed Dawn if it came down to it and she had no other option? Quite possibly, especially if (as she was in the show) Dawn was ready to make that sacrifice. Was she ready to entertain that thought beforehand? Hell no!  And for the others to be calmly discussing such an option was IMHO appalling.

  I personally couldn't stand the outright prejudice on the show towards every demon character.  *sniff*  I mean, yeah, they are supposed to be evil...but Buffy and the others treat them like nothing, (especially Spike) when the fact is they had lived more, seen more, felt more than ANY of the human characters.  

  I've also always had some problems with Buffy's character, if only because I usually can't stand preppy girls.  There she was, the warrior fighting the forces of darkness and all that, and she had such a dainty constitution.  If she ever talked to Spike or any other demon character she always looked at them funny or gave a disgusted look or speech if they ever said anything about their pasts or past fights that made them look inhuman.  She acts as if she had never seen or heard of it before.  She needs to adapt to the company she keeps, damnit!
 

Boy, we've gone pretty far off the mark.  But I agree that the others discussing sacrificing Dawn is pretty unforgiveable.  But then Giles is like that - he's betrayed Buffy time and again, how much easier to give up Dawn without much fight?  After all, she isn't even "real" like Spike and the other demon characters - she isn't afforded the rights that are reserved to humans only - not even as much rights as you would give a dog, not to be tortured, imprisoned, or killed out of hand.

I'll have to go back and look at the earlier episodes re Joyce.  I never got the impression that she was a drunk.  She did make a major mistake with Buffy in telling her not to come back though, but I always thought that was more a slip of the tongue in anger.  She never meant it, and never expected Buffy to think that she meant it.  When Buffy does go home, she doesn't seem to expect to be rejected.  I think Buffy would have left regardless, that just made it easier to justify.

that's a good point Always_jbj.  Had they not started in on her and acted like it was her duty to kill  her sister, her reaction would have likely been the same, but her delivery probably would have been less: "I will KILL you if you think of looking at her cross-eyed." heh

   The problem I've always had with Joyce was all they really did was make her the typical 'mom' character.  They didn't give her much depth of understanding.  They just had her react in whatever typical mom way was expected.  She talked like the mom, acted like the mom, argued with her daughter like the mom...

  Maybe its just because I've got some pretty weird parents, but it always seemed to me like her character was just 'The mom' instead of a woman seperate.

My biggest pet peeve was the whole soul issue.

The way the writers had everyone on the show spewing crap about how lacking Spike was because he didnt have a soul. 'He was unable to love because he had no soul and because he has no soul then he has to be evil...blah blah blah but yet its never addressed what everyone else with a soul did.

Spike was basically moulded into being the asshole that made up the team referred to as The Scourage of Europe. He's admitted to how much of his persona came about by his constant humiliation/degradation before his turning and then by his torturing at the hands of Angelus after his turning.

Faith's life has been hinted at being a really shitty one with a drunk/abusive mom who was gone a lot so she was shuffled from one relative to another in between bouts of living with her mom before social services takes her away and puts her in a foster home. She accidently kills someone and granted she tried to cover it up, but is still persecuted way beyond the call for it so she turns to the dark side.

Neither of the two get any slack for accepting what they did, and dealing with the consequences, nor did they get a break when they decided to try to do the right then just because it was the right thing.

Yet heres the rub. Friggin Giles brought forth Eghyon when he was a rebellious 20something who ended up killing a friend of his. Then years later Eghyon comes back to kill some more people. Yet he is never held accountable. He also kills Glory while she is in her human form of Ben. Needed to be done, but again, where does he get the right to decide?

Willow too! She kills Warren (needed to be done imho) and then tried to kills Johanthon and Andrew and because the Scoobies wouldnt let her, decides to destroy the whole damn world.

Xander eats the Principal and other people while he's a hyena (granted, he is possesed) but was in his right (warped) mind when he summons a demon that makes people spontaneously combust.

I mean seriously. Hypocritical much?!?

One of my biggest complaints in fan fiction is stories that don't connect the unrealistic quality of Buffy's love for Angel.  Even in that wonderful episode where Angel and Buffy have their one day in the sunshine, it is all basically a fairy tale.  The reality is that an unequal partner, Angel as human and Riley, could not be a good relationship for Buffy.  She was a powerful warrior and in a battle situation she would be at a disadvantage worrying about a mate that was of a weaker physical nature.  The series clearly had her worrying about Riley as a warrior, human Angel would have been the same. 

The strongest, IMVHO, statement of the unrealistic nature of Buffy's love for Angel and what she wanted was the ending scene in the one day as human Angel (sorry, but I don't remember the title) when her last words reference wanting something normal.  There is no way that Buffy would ever have a normal life.  The reality in most relationships is that a significant inequality of strength does not make for happy or long lived relationships.

Xander didn't eat principal flutie.  At the time they were eating the principal, Xander was trying to rape Buffy.

Lady Yashka -Here's an example, "On the outside, Buffy looked like any other girl. She was pretty, confident, and had lots of friends. But she was no ordinary girl, for Buffy was the greatest slayer to ever live."  Good job on picking out a typical "tell, don't show" mistake that many writers make.  If you hadn't mentioned it, I probably wouldn't have thought of it, but is is indeed one of my "peeves" in the sense that fics written like that tend to be boring and I have to read too many of them. :)  It doesn't really peeve me though - I just usually tune out on the story or quit reading it if it isn't one I have to read for one reason or another.

Anaunte - Just catching up here - you knew I wasn't going to let this one go, didn't you? LOL  Judging people by how well they spell or punctuate would be foolish and petty.  Juding a fic by the mechanical parts that make it readable, is not.  It's very difficult to get into a story if your are being jarred every few minutes by a misspelled or misued word or if you have to stop and go "wait a minute? WTF does that mean?" because a sentence is structured or punctuated in such a way that you are confused about who is doing what to whom. (I see that I did answer this somewhere, but there've been more additions since, so I'm piping in again. Sorry! Getting off soapbox now)

Hmmm - who else said good stuff?  Finding fics with "wackiness ensues" or "hijinks ensued" - another example of telling rather than showing - albeit in a totally inappropriate and annoying fashion.  Would be fine (for me) in a summary, but never in the actual fic itself.  Which brings me to a peeve I didn't mention - writers who use "Scoobyisms" in their narrative. Just sets my teeth on edge.  For me, rather than setting a tone for the fic (which I presume is the purpose - to keep us in the atmosphere of the show), it just reminds me that it's being written by somebody who watched the show a lot.  Maybe that one is just me?

Dia - Yay for everthing you said (which, at this point, I don't necessarily remember perfectly other than I was nodding my head a lot. LOL)

Actually, Buffy starts cutting Spike tremendous slack after he gets his soul, and I think it's a fundamental aspect of Spike's character that he never expresses even a hint of regret for a century-long killing spree before he gets the soul.  He changes, he stops doing that, but he it doesn't bother him. He even tells Dawn his gory stories with obvious relish.  I love Spike, but there is a good reason most of the Scoobies think he's gross.  

msclawdia (in case I forgot to log in)

Good point, msclawdia. As I may have mentioned before, when David Fury was questioned by irate Spike fans about why he needed his soul, his reply was that Spike couldn't really be a hero until he had regretted and repented for his previous life of murder and mayhem and he couldn't do that until he had a soul to make it happen.  Not saying that I agree, just that that was the thinking of Joss and his writers. Which fits into their canon, in which they had already established that the soul is all-important.

Well, I have a HUGE list of fic-related pet peeves, but ranking up at the top of the list is when a character's name is spelled wrong.  It's one of the few things I haven't seen on the list so far, so I had to add my two cents.

Interesting point about the soul and the need to repent.  I prefer to look at it this way - if in fact Angel/Angelus are two different people, then there is no need for Angel to repent for the things that Angelus did.  His 'sin' was in agreeing to be turned - if you note in the scene where Dru turns William, and where Darla turns Liam, there is that element of consent.  My point of view is that Angel (and Spike) should feel guilty for that - not for any specific actions of their souless selves.  Angel should have the added burden that for 100 years AFTER he got the soul, he was still a useless layabout, and didn't do anything towards redemption until Whistler waved a pubescent Buffy in front of his nose. 

As far as the writing/spelling thing, computers have been a huge help to many people.  Educated people used to be judged by their handwriting, or how well they played piano.  It's nice to have something that equals the playing field a little for those not as manually capable. But it is equally possible (and far more likely) to be able to write prefectly grammatical sentences, and still be an awful writer, as slaymesoftly and lady Y were saying.  Writing, especially creative fiction, is one of those things where the whole is more than the sum of its parts.  Although poor spelling and/or grammar can (and should) be corrected with a computer program, a computer can't write a book you'd want to read, and you can't force someone to be creative. These intangibles are qualities that should be fostered despite an education lacking in the basics, even if it is incredibly annoying.

I think spike, rightfully wasn't sorry for his earlier vampire activities because he understood he was a vampire and those people were his food.  Just like you and I don't get a guilt attack over eating a cheeseburger.

If he'd been raping and torturing and maiming, maybe he would have felt guilty since that would have been excessive to his survival, however I don't think there's any reason he should feel guilty about killing people for food.  he's not human, he's a vampire and people are on the menu, that's just the way it is.

He felt guilt for what he did to Buffy because he saw her, and probably the rest of her scoobies, as more than just food, but as People, just like you don't see your Dog as something you  might potentially put in your crock pot later.  He cared for Buffy and saw her as an equal, so in his mind what he did to her was a crime.  Just like it's wrong if you or I were to kill another person, but not if we were to kill a deer or a cow for food.

He DID show SOME remorse for all the killing he did when he was insane and crazy in the basement, but he eventually made peace with it.  He's not Angel, he doesn't have a martyr complex nor does he, once completely sane again, feel any reason to get all worked up over what was perfectly OK at the time that he did it. He was a vampire doing what normal vampires do.

It's ludicrous to hold a vampire to a human's moral code.  We would never hold a lion to a human's moral code.

It's ludicrous to hold a vampire to a human's moral code.  We would never hold a lion to a human's moral code.

Exactly!

I mostly agree about the guilt thing. He SHOULDN'T feel guilty, cos eating food isn't evil.

But you say "He didn't feel guilty", and that I don't agree with. Where did that come from? I can't remember hearing anything to that regard. He didn't broadcast it like Angel, but that doesn't mean he didn't feel it. And considering the situation he found when he returned to sanity, moping around feeling guilty would have been pretty selfish; there was a fight to fight after all. But there were several moments in S7 when it was obvious that he DID feel guilty for his past.

Thanks, slaymesoftly.  I hadn't heard that Fury discussion before, but I would generally agree with that sentiment.

Anyway, zoegrace already knows we fervently disagree on the whole vampires, moralilty, and guilt shebang, so I won't rehash that here :)

  I agree with the whole 'can't hold a lion to a human's moral code'.  Humans don't even follow their own moral code.

  Vampires are predators.  Buffy's job was to kill them to protect humans, ok.  But that didn't mean that the scoobies had the right to hate absolutely everything about Spike just because he was a vampire.  They treated him like he was beneath them, when in food chain standards it was actually the other way around.

  You can get pissed off as hell when your cat eats your pet mouse (like mine recently just did) but you can't exactly hold your cat to your own moral standards when it's in their nature.  *shrugs*  Just the way it works.  You'll also notice another thing vampires and cats have in common: They both enjoy playing with their food.  They like the fear, and they enjoy tormenting their prey.  Any animal that hunts its entire life is going to develop an enjoyment for those things.  Human hunters and butchers hold no more guilt about what they do than any other predator.

  Another thing that gets me is when the scoobies act like it's a great big 'ick' for Spike to drink blood in the first place.  They make faces while watching it and can't stand him talking about it.  

  Does anyone in here realize what's in a hot dog?  Humans take a helpless pig, butcher it, rip out its innards and use the parts of it that can't be sold seperately, grind them up and make them into these tasty little dogs.  But its not just pig parts in there, folks.  Because of bad health standards in some factories there's also the occasional rat droppings and fly wings in there.

And they have the nerve to look at him drinking blood and go 'Ewww'?
 

Dia, he felt some guilt, but nothing like what Angel did.  And when he fought with Robin Wood, he didn't seem the slightest bit sorry about killing Robin's mother.  He said: "I was a vampire, she was a slayer, that's how the game was played."

Once the first had stopped pushing his buttons, he seemed to make peace with his past.  He didn't seem to try to superimpose a human soul and ideals retroactively onto his soulless vampire past. 

Msclawdia?  You think vampires should feel guilty for eating dinner?  Don't you think that's just more the human idea of being upset at not being at the top of the food chain anymore?  Good and evil is determined by humans as what is good and evil for humans.  Among another species good and evil would be based on what was good and evil for THAT species.  Why should vampires feel guilty about being vampires? Do you feel guilty about being human?

This is another part of why typically I don't care for Spike with a soul, because it's an attempt to make him "human" in some way. I like him as a vampire.

And TwilightChild?  I totally freaking love you!

"And they have the nerve to look at him drinking blood and go 'Ewww'?"

I wonder what they would say if they knew that the Masai of Kenya and Tanzania live off of the milk and blood of their cattle. According to their ideas drinking any blood is bad.

(The site below has the information on it. I simply typed in Masai in yahoo search and looked through some sites)

(http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/cattle/masai/index.htm)

Niamh, i love you!

My Show Pet Peeve - Large, lingering plot holes that never get fixed, like Xander's demon - invokey, the entire "As You Were" episode - how did Riley know that Buffy worked at the Doublemeat? - and so on. 

I also hate an Angel-after-re-souling. In my mind, he leaves Buffy because he can't have sex with her. He's getting rid of temptation by moving states. And yeah, there's the whole moral things and "i need to achieve redemption" storyline behind it, but you know that's why he's going, right? 

Actually, any Angel moments. He's a self-righteous, self-centered bastard, IMO.

Fan Fic Pet Peeves - Speeches! My ultimate cringe-town fic moment was:

It's season three. Buffy and Spike are in love, thanks to the amazing Powers That Be. Last scene(paragraph) of the fic, and this is what the have to say:

Buffy - Spike. You are my one love. How can i have not realized it? You are beauty, you are light, you are soul. I love you, until my ashes are scattered, and after.

Spike - You too, pet. 

and that is SERIOUS FIC!. "You too, pet"... i want the author shot.

And also, any "Angel-is-the-sorry-victim-and-Spike-is-an-evil-soulless-fiend-incapable-of-feeling-anything-except-for-hate -towards-Buffy-even-though-he-has-a-soul", aka Chosen: Angel comes, kisses Buffy, doesn't leave Sunnydale, Spike wears the Liz Taylor, Spike dusts, Angel and Buffy live happily ever after, with no regret over what happened to Spike and with total acceptance by the remaining few Scoobies. 

Okay, now. [/rant.]

Wow- how did I manage to miss this thread?  Hmm...

First let me say that what irked me was that as "progressive" as the show was with its hidden messages and look into teenage and young adult life and first lesbian kiss on television and all that, how come there were no main black characters?  Kendra, killed after three eps, Buffy's counselor- killed in one ep.  Trick, who no one cared about, staked a few eps later, Forrest- killed, season five, no semi major recognizable black actors, same as season six, and Wood, who is annoying and I'm sure no one really cared about, almost dies in s7, but what did it matter cause the show was over anyway.

At least Angel had Gunn, who was likable.  And Angel wasn't so bad to me- he only played the part around the Scoobies because it was the only way they would accept him, cause otherwise, he wasn't that likable (at least around them.  His character worked better being *away* from them).  He admitted that their wasn't a big difference between him and Angelus around Spike, so I'll give him credit for that.  It's the first step, after all.

Well, aside from the big ass plot holes and why some of the plans executed by the Buffy gang made no sense whatsoever (attempting to drive away in one old ass trailer at the eleventh hour, as opposed to taking a flight to anywhere before Glory knew who the Key was, and chances are her dumb ass wouldn't have known what happened anyway, until the clock was up on the ritual), what pissed me off the most was how the Buffyverse world claimed to be this cut and dry, black/white, evil or good place, when every season, they gave an example of how true that *wasn't.*  I hated how blind the majority of the characters were. 

Xander- I'm on the fence with him.  He had his good, "growing up" moments.  Was he prejudiced?  Sure, but that didn't stop him from admiring Spike at times or rescuing him, or not jumping on the "Spike's evil, let's put him down" band wagon for once in s7.

I agree with someone's assessment of Riley being a neo-Nazi in disguise, Willow was a good friend till s6- Buffy was actually the bad friend in their relationship, IMO until she died (the second time).  Willow listened to Buffy bitch and moan about all of her problems, then Oz skips out, Buffy doesn't really wanna hear about. Willow realizes she's gay, and Buffy still kinda doesn't wanna hear about it.  Everyone has to rally to save Captain Cardboard in "Goodbye Iowa," but in order for Tara to get any recognition for her birthday, she has to almost be dragged home by her abusive family first.

Joyce wasn't a lush- we only see her drinking in "Becoming," and... yea, I think that's it.  Anyway, there was something else-

I hate perfect, poor Spike who's abused by evil Buffy and the Scoobies. Spike gave as good as he got. He wasn't exactly a saint when he found out he didn't have a chip. Besides trying to go and bite the girl in the alley, he plans a pretty dark evening for the slayer.

Spike is my favorite character but it's too much to read a fiction in which Spike is always right and everybody else is always wrong.

You mean when he thought he his chip didn't work anymore, right?  That was only in retaliation to Buffy pissing him off.  Spike wasn't perfect- far from it, just usually more right than the other characters.  He never claimed to be perfect or better as some of the other characters did, so it made it more fun to watch him cause he wasn't all "I know what's best" and whatnot.

I've got one- The overuse of the term "unlife" in fanfic.  Spike used it once, and when he did he was drunk, and missing Dru.  I don't see any reason to use it.

Scarlet Ibis - Gunn was the token black guy in the show, mostly because I think people were complaining that there was no black guy on Buffy the Vampire Slayer.  Lets face it, none of the writers were black, so there weren't many black characters.  Gunn did progress to be a better character, though.  Definitely likable.

  I don't like the perfect Spike thing, either.  I do occasionally do the 'poor Spike', just because he's fun to abuse, but still.  You're right, he wasn't perfect.  He was a bad, rude man, for a very long time.  But most of his faults when it came with his time with the scoobies, especially with Buffy, is just plain ignorance.  He had been a demon for far too long to just be able to automatically know what was acceptable to the human (not to mention Slayer!) he was in love with.

Gunn was the token black guy- of course he was.  He starts out as only being the muscle... Meh, I still liked him most of the time.

As for Spike not knowing what was acceptable- absolutely right.  What I didn't get was that everyone would gripe about it, but no one bothered to explain anything.  Anya too- just tell the guys who haven't been human in a *long* time what's the business of the week, you know?  Just break it down.

"The token black guy..." Oh my gosh, i just might have died for laughing. 

It's just... i just relized the intense lackage of black guys.

There was Wood, and Trick, and Kendra, in an islandy way, and Gunn, and Forrest. And they all die. (save for Wood, but he's a jackass so he can die in some sort of fic world.)

Totally with you on the baby fic problems, VW. One of the reasons I often don't like them.   If someone is writing about something about which I know nothing, then anomalies don't bother me because I don't notice them - but when they are writing about something with which I'm familiar, then it becomes very obvious that they are not writing from their own experience or research.

Actually, although there were very few people who weren't middle class whites in BtVS, I always thought that the way those few people were woven into the stories was indicative of a complete lack of prejudice.  When there was a black character, race was never mentioned.  There were no big signs "African American character here - aren't we liberal and with it?"- the character was presented as is and could be judged on personality and deeds.  To me, that's more important and a bigger sign that there wasn't intentional prejudice than the paltry numbers of them. People were people (or vamps) - not stereotypes.  There were more AA characters on Angel, because he moved away from lily white Sunnydale to a big city where there was more likelihood of running into people of other races and backgrounds than there would have been in a small city. If you rule out color as a criteria, then Angel's crew was pretty diverse: a black street kid, an Englishman, a brilliant girl from Texas, a prom queen from a small town/city, an old vampire with Irish origins and a green demon.  

And, I think it's an excellent point that Buffy wanted normal - and her view of that would include a little house in the suburbs surrounded by other people just like her. 

Interesting point about the diversity on the show, or lack of it. Shapinglight's most recent Spike/Darla fic entitled "Family Reunion" (an excellent read, btw) delves into race and class in contemporary London in a really interesting and thought-provoking way. She has a number of excellent OCs from very different backgrounds including South Asian and Caribbean vamps. I wish this was something that fanfiction authors would do more often, but that generally requires that we take the characters out of Sunnydale or introduce OCs which can be tricky.

A pet peeve of mine is the over-romanticization of sex. Don't get me wrong. Sex definately has its soft moments, but to have Spike murmuring in the middle of it "I love you, I love you," or have it described as "the most mind blowing pleasure ever" bothers me. Especially when we're considering who the pairing is. Buffy has all sorts of sexual baggage that she brings to the table and Spike, while certainly an attentive and considerate lover in my mind, is still a vampire no matter how you slice it. This could just be a personal preference of enjoying angst, but fluff spuffy sex just doesn't ring true to me. Someone mentioned above that it shows when an author writes about something they don't have personal experience with. IMO that certainly can shine through quite clearly on smut.

Where does he rose petels? Why, from the rose gardens of the little old ladies he's helped cross the street of course. The I love yous I can forgive because Spike likes to talk, but mindblowing? Really?

What really annoys me though, is when Buffy uses proper english. She has very distinct grammer and diction. Use it. Um, I don't think I mean anyone here though. : )

this is hellbound, btw, if you care

Verity- why the blushing?  Is this about the baby fic thing?  I gotta be honest you guys (and keep in mind I'm only 21 and a 'late bloomer' if you wanna label me), some of the things I've wrote about, like sex scenes or having a baby, were things that I never experienced at the time that I wrote them (and I still have never been pregnant, btw), and I haven't gotten any complaints thus far... Though to be truthful, I didn't go into much detail with Buffy's pregnancy and what it was like for her- except for when she had that placenta abruption, cause I took the time to look that up.

As for Spike and sex scenes, well, I've had him say things, though I honestly can't recall if I've ever had him say directly "I love you."  I think the problem with a lot of sex scenes  (or scenes in general, from a few fics that I've read) is the abuse of banal words and pharases such as "mind blowing."  There was one fic I read where the word "God" was mentioned at least forty times within 25 pages (it got so annoying that I did the "replace" thingy on Word so I didn't have to look at it anymore), and more than half of those pages didn't involve them having sex.  In fact, I'm not sure I even recall Spike actually saying "God," and to have him and Buffy both say it so much... it was kind of nauseating.  Or having characters talk the same- it's overtly wrong.

This topic and the whole discussion is really interesting. As a new fanfic writer I read the whole thread carefully and I find it quite helpful.

Generally, I accept everything Joss did in the show. Some things were gettin on my nerves but I'm not complaining - it's Joss's playground, we've got nothing to say.

I'm more picky with fanfiction. For example, I don't read fluff at all. Especially, I avoid Spike / Buffy fluffy stories. It's just not right. The things between them were so complex that even if I'm not denying that they might have been together someday, I'm physically unable to read stories where they easily end up happy, married, lalala and all. And possibly with a magical child they can raise together peacefully... I think than angst and drama are the only canon way to write those characters. On the other hand, this is the power of fanfiction - in the world you create you are the God. And we disagree with Joss on so many areas, that most of us like to read something off-canon from time to time.

VR and Scarlet -

My bad. Perhaps I should clarify. Certainly people can write about things and sex they've never had before. Case in point are all the lovely ladies that write slash. Most of them likely don't have direct experience with it and yet the writing is still compelling and effective. Spike is a loquacious fellow and I too usually write him speaking throughout sex, but it's almost never "I love you." I could only see him saying things like that in a post-NFA context.

But I'm going to stand by my statement that inexperience on a personal level can (not saying always) be evident in fic. Hell, just look at some of the stories on ff.net. I recently read a fic that had Spike slam into Buffy when they first engaged in sex. Up to that point, Angel had been her one and only. The author wrote that Buffy "saw stars." Yeah, the only stars she would be seeing are stars of *pain.*

My biggest pet peeve in fanfiction is when people portay Spike as this perfect hero, put upon by evil Buffy. Spike was not a hero for a long time; he was a killer. The reason Buffy had so much trouble trusting him was because she knew he was a killer; she saw it firsthand. Yes, in season six, she treated him like crap. By then it was wrong, because she had already seen his change for the better. But for fics that are set between seasons 2--5, it's absolutely ridiculous to expect Buffy to jump right into his arms. He didn't (in my eyes) attempt to redeem himself until "Forever," when he tried to help Dawn get Joyce back. Although it was a terrible idea, it was also the act of a compassionate and good heart. Before that...well...remember "Crush?" Can we blame Buffy for being angry after that? And, as he said, after "Intervention" she did begin to treat him like a man. Until the freak show that was season six, I think she behaved in a perfectly understandable way. Trust isn't built overnight, and I don't think that should be overlooked in fanfiction.

ClawofCat, I know exactly the story that you're referencing. Though in that instance, Buffy seemed prepared for anything he'd give her, or maybe even wanted the pain.

Anyway - I agree that it's hard to take Spike as the white knight hero in the early years. Now, if young Buffy somehow gets worked up and decides to just jump him? Well, that's somethin' a little different. ;)

Well, I agree with you on that point, Guest. If the fic is just about sex, then the trust issue isn't really important. But if it's about Buffy developing a *relationship* with Spike, then I prefer some realistic character development. :)

Okay, I'm totally guilty of this but I'm going to shamelessly list it as a PP cause it IS one...WIP.  **running and hiding** hehe

Okay, the Xander/Hyena thing has already been covered to death.  I REALLY wish that Buffy NEVER EVER ran after Riley.  I think she should have beat his head in for blaming his vamp ho fetish on her.  And THEN I think she should have used her bloody fists to beat XANDER's head in for making her think that she should run after that lump of potato-head.

Phew.  That came out a lot more violent then I meant it.

Ah.  No.  Not really.  I just didn't think it bothered me THAT much.  LOL.  Learn something new every day, huh?

My other PP is a fanfic one...Misfiled Seasons.  I tend to avoid season 6 unless I know the author and I'm beta-ing for them or something.  But a lot of Season 6 fics are WAY too dark - for my taste - and I'd rather not wade in them.  It's fine if it's somebody else's cuppa, but when the fic is marked 5 (a season I really like, btw) I get all grumpy when it turns out to be a dark Season 6.

I'm probably overboard but, hey, you asked.  I'm sure I could come up with more but I've already offended someone, I'm sure, so I'll cut my loses.  LOL.  

Seriously, sorry, if I have offended.

I doubt you've offended anybody. This is the perfect place to voice our pet peeves after all.  :)

I do understand your peeve and share it to an extent. It's not so much the wrong seasons being mentioned but mislabled warnings. If a fic contains graphic content, (violence, torture, rape, ect) I'd like to know before I read it.

Sometimes those subjects really bother me, and I've even skipped chapters in certain stories because of it. If I don't like the story, I hit the back button and go on my merry way.

UB- You are so right on fics needing good character development for a true relationship to develope. (but you already knew I'd agree with you on this.) :P

Fluff is okay sometimes. (Usually in one-shot fics, in my opinion.) I just can't see Buffy and Spike's relationship being smooth sailing all the time. They fight too much for that.

I don't like "poor perfect Spike" fics anymore than I like "poor perfect Buffy" fics. They were flawed, please show it.

UB, totally agree with that Buffy *shouldn't* have trusted Spike up until the last few episodes of B5. There are plenty of reasons to bash Buffy for B6, but not so many before that.  The only one I can think of is that she really ought not to be going around punching him gratuitously, even though she doesn't trust him, etc. etc.  And yet, she does.

You guys have hit most of the obvious things to be peeved about in the series. Here are a couple I don't recall being mentioned.

1) They never really develop Giles' character in any interesting ways. In particular, we never learn much about Ripper. I think they dropped that story line because the teenage audience didn't really care about the old fogey's past. 

2) There seemed to be a steady dumbing down of Spike. When we first met him, after all, he was managing a whole gang of minions and creativelely finding ways to cure Dru. The writers did finally admit that Spike could read Latin and Greek in one of the last episodes of B7 (I forget which one, but he reads the inscription about she being the only one who can wield the weapon). But then on A5 he was back to being pretty dumb -- especially (and most annoyingly) in Damage.  The biggest plothole created by the dumbing down of Spike is that he mysteriously doesn't know how to get around the chip for YEARS, but then when he needs a soul, he immediately knows how to go about getting one.  Of course, that's also easily explained: he didn't really want to get around the chip because deep down he knew that was the only way he could get close to Buffy!  LOL.

As for fanfic, we all have our own ideas about who these characters really are.  And some of those ideas are not so mixy.   My own peeve is that Spike is often portrayed as being emotionally weaker than I see him.  Sure, he has a rich emotional life, and it does involve a lot of pain.  But the Spike I know and love isn't a sob sister.  Mostly he covers it up with his super-annoying cocky persona.  And when it gets really bad he goes out and hits things and/or drinks himself into a stupor.  My other fanfic peeve can be stated generically.  There are a lot of observations that were once fresh, but which get repeated over and over to the point where they are now nothing but cliches.  My last pet peeve is when really badly written fics get rave reviews.  Some of them even get awards.  Some of them even get lots and lots of awards.  It's a mystery to me.  (Don't get me wrong, most award winning fics are great!  But there are a few...)

Maggie, totally agree with your (unnumbered) number three about the "rave reviews" things.  I've read some fics, cause the review numbers were so high, and then after chapter one, it's like "Huh?"

As for Ripper, I thought "Band Candy" pretty much summed it up that Ripper was pretty much like Spike (hand cuffs, and sex in public, and smoking, pilfering... and teenaged Joyce dug it. Foreshadowing?), and that was all I needed to know.

As for the dumbing down of Spike, Joss mentions somewhere that they had to break him down consistently, because they had built him up so much when we first met him (that's cause, Joss thought he would get to kill him off, and make him a disposable villain.  Silly Joss....)

Oh, and Buffy trusting Spike- well, I don't see why not, cause he isn't all about the secrets.  "Hey Buffy, I plan on killing you this weekend" or "hey, really not for destroying the world, cause then I wouldn't have any people to eat," or "Yea, I'm in love with you."  Spike seems to think that honesty is the best policy, so no reason to distrust him (cept in "Yoko Factor," but that was pretty much it).  And Buffy, trust or not, in s5, there's no reason to go around punching someone, just cause you feel like it.  She said that for Spike, it was probably foreplay, but really, what was she getting out of it?  Mmhmm... And, once she slapped instead of punched him, so it makes me think there was an agenda behind it all...

Hey Scarlet,

I'm olderer and I wouldn't have minded more story about Giles' journey from being Ripper to being Giles.  I wanted to know more about how that played into his relative close-mindedness vis a vis Spike and stuff like that.  Also, I didn't understand how he got so ugly in B7 -- plotting Spike's death and all.  Plus, seeing as how I'm olderer and all, I think he's kind of sexy -- so I just wanted to know more about him!! 

I get what Joss had to do.  But there's breaking down and there's breaking down.  Being chipped and then falling in love with someone who despises him both go a long way toward "breaking down" Spike.  I don't see why that means they also had to try to pretend that he had a lobotomy while he was under the knife with the Initiative.  I mean, I'm willing to turn a blind eye to the necessary plot hole about Spike's lack of creative effort to get rid of the chip because we did need a chipped Spike in order to give him room for real interaction with the Scoobies.  But every now and then they just make him drooling stupid for no good reason.  (This is mostly a huge peeve about Damage and other spots in A5).

The Yoko Factor lie is no small thing.  It was Spike's first chance to show he was something different and he didn't take it.  I can't blame Buffy or the Scoobies for being slow to trust him until he gets a chance to pass a similar test.  He does get that chance in Intervention, passing it with flying colors --- and from then on, I do hold Buffy and the Scoobies accountable when they treat him like evil scum.  But I also did say that I think that lack of trust did not give Buffy or the Scoobies the right to gratuitously beat up on Spike.  So I totally agree with you about that.  (Really, really wish the writers would more explicitly come to terms with Buffy's problem with handling physical force/ violence responsibly.

Maggie, I'm with you... I certainly wouldn't have minded more exploration of Giles' past... lol...fortunately now I have fanfic for that!

I also agree with you about trusting Spike... there were a few windows of opportunity (even pre-chip) in which he could have won their trust (and during which we writers can take advantage and have him do just that), and he blew them... it wasn't until Intervention that he started to get things right...so I don't blame them for not trusting him prior to that and I also agree that Buffy was too quick to hit--usually Spike--when things didn't go her way. It's not one of her better qualities, that's for sure.

Maggie,

I'm on the "Giles was kinda hot" train- no arguing there.  I guess I just never really considered backstory at the time, until "Fool for Love," that is.  They never really presented it to us before that...  And not arguing about what Joss did, but unfortunately, the dumbing down of a character happens on a lot of shows.  And "Damage?"  When was he not so bright in that ep?  The Chinese water demon thingy?

And, I think Spike showed he was something different ("Becoming" aside) when he spent all that time with Joyce in "Lover's Walk," and neither threatened or harmed her.  Any other vamp, and she'd been dead on the kitchen floor before Buffy had the chance to run all the way home from the school library.

Hey Scarlet, Spike being dumb in A5: the Chinese water demon thingy is exhibit a).  Spike has killed two slayers, knows that there are now thousands of them and can't come close to adding it up?  He comes across as totally blond in Why We Fight (ooh, let me sit in the captain's seat!).  There are just a bunch of cringe moments.  Of course, then they turn around and give him insight (he gets to say the Shakespearean line "There's a hole in the world. It feels like we ought to have known" in A Hole in the World. It's just completely poetically right for the moment in so many ways).  Anyway, it seems clear that Spike's drool moments in A5 are mostly there to give Angel a fig leaf, since Spike outclasses him in so many ways.

That Spike could sometimes NOT be totally evil doesn't change the fact, from the Scooby POV that he was mostly evil.  He doesn't eat Joyce.  Darla did.  But it's not hard to suspect that the non-eating of Joyce is cause he was drunk out of his mind and she was being nice to him and eating her might have made it harder for him to get Buffy to help him round up the stuff he needed for Willow to do the love spell.  And in the same episode he has a sob moment when he goes past a bench that triggered the happy memory of him and Dru feeding off of a homeless guy.  Oh yeah, and he kills the magic shop owner in that episode.  When Buffy first sees him in B4, he's feeding off of a frat boy.  After the chip, in addition to outright betraying them to Adam, he makes frequent loud noises about how he's super-evil and he's going to be after them the minute he gets rid of the chip.  Think of the scene when Xander and Giles are out looking for Faith and they run into Spike.  They offer him the implicit trust of assuming that he'd help them find her -- and his response is to totally send them up about it and bellow about why these people can't remember that he's EVIL.  And then he gloats about how they've given him enough information to ID Faith, and when he does see her he plans to send her straight to them cause she can do the dirty work for him.  In season 5 he kidnaps Riley's doctor (despite the fact that Riley is about one heart beat away from dying if he doesn't get the operation righ this minute), and mistakenly thinking the doctor has gotten rid of the chip immediately takes on Buffy loudly declaring his intention to eat her on the spot.  (Another big plot hole is the part where Buffy doesn't stake him after that little episode -- it's really hard to understand how Spike survived that).  Even after he finds out he's in love with her, he responds to the "how I killed the slayers" session by going after her with a shot gun.  Now she hurt him bad in that episode -- but a shot gun blast to the head does seem like a somewhat excessive response.  He doesn't act on it, but the impulse is still very much there.  He punches Tara to help her in Family, but then tries to bolster his Big Bad image by saying her Dad is a piece of work, and he LIKES that.  We viewers know that a lot of this is for show.  We viewers know that he really does love Buffy.  And since we know his ultimate trajectory, we know he's going to end up becoming a true hero.  But the Scoobies have no reason to even contemplate the possibility until Intervention.   Sigh.  I do love my Spike.  To me all of the bluster is part of his charm.  But we can't judge harshly when the people on the receiving end of that bluster take it a bit more seriously than we might.

Ah, but in "Lover's Walk," he didn't intend on running into Buffy- Willow sent him there cause she claimed she left the spell book there.  And he was drunk out of his mind when he ate the shopkeeper.  I think he genuinely liked Joyce then, and saw no reason to kill her.  And, had that been another vamp, Xander would've been dead instead of just plain unconscious.

And yea, he crows how evil he is in s4, but if he really wanted to off them, he could've done in Giles when Rayne turned him into a demon, then gone back to his house and taken his liquor and his money (since his invite was never revoked). I'm not saying he didn't do bad stuff, but he was kind of on the low end as far as sneaky and underhandedness- he liked to brag and boast about his "Big Bad" status. 

And s5 is kinda, well, for me it doesn't count since Riley ran away like a big girl in the first place.  "Hey Riley, you're dying man.  Come see this doctor."  Riley just punches his old friend and face, and prances off like a magnificent poof...  And more honest will he tells Buffy he wants to kill her (and she really doesn't try to stop him, until he roars in pain, that is).  Spike survives because he's still helpless, and Buffy really doesn't view him as a threat.  She only revokes his invite when he declares his love for her (She has Willow do the spell before the whole "chained her up" incident).  And Spike's impulsive- not really OOC.  She knocked him down and made him cry, and it wouldn't be sensible to go pull her hair and kick her in the shins ;)  

 And for saying he like's Tara's dad, it's contradictory, cause he proves the abusive bastard is a liar, and Tara gets to stay, sans demon status.  I'd like to know the Scoobies reaction had Spike not been there, and they thought she was a bit demony...  I just feel, that had I been one of the Scoobies, his contradictory actions would prove to me that he's just covering- even Dawn says she's badder than he is.  I think she was one of the few who actually got it...

Much of this is true, tho' I have to say, it doesn't matter that he was drunk when he ate the shopkeeper.  He was still a fully active vampire then.  He killed people all the way up til he got caught by the initiative.  And Buffy saw him take pleasure in the memory of eating the homeless guy, and she saw him not caring about the shopkeeper he ate, and she saw him with the frat boy.  She saw him killing.  More importantly, she knew she only saw a teeny fraction of his killing.  Up until the chip he was evil.  Not as evil as Angelus.  But I doubt that mattered to the hundreds of people he murdered during those few years.

As for the rest, you're focusing on the big picture, all of which is true.  But the point is to see what the Scoobies saw.  And what they saw is this guy who only stopped killing because of a chip in his head making very loud noises about wanting to go back to his evil ways the minute he could.  And even acting on it when he could.  To me it's harder to explain why Spike didn't get staked in B4 or the first half of B5 than it is to explain why the Scoobies massively distrusted him.

Could a perceptive Scooby have seen through the bravado to the real (potentially good) Spike beneath?  Giles did try in Season 4, only to have it completely thrown back in his face.  Dawn did make room for him -- but her inability to discern the problems (his obvious pleasure in the memory of eating the entire family down to the little girl hiding in the coal bin) means that her witness in his favor is not very strong.  And yeah, they got hyper nasty to him after his crush on Buffy was revealed -- but that doesn't mean they didn't have reason to be mistrustful.

Now, it's true that when he starts making different noises, about wanting to change -- they aren't very receptive.  But that comes pretty late in the game.  He needs to win back their trust.  And with Glory/the Tower/fighting over the summer for them he should have had much more of their trust.  The Scoobies fail badly in season 6.  Really badly.  But before that, while  I can find stuff to criticize -- I have to be honest and admit that Spike was a big player in the state of affairs between him and the Scoobies.  In many ways, he made his own bed.  

In response to your first paragraph (because the other three I agree with, though clearly in a different manner), Spike was a fully active vampire in "Lover's Walk," but he didn't kill anyone Buffy cared about, and he could have.  Angelus kills Ms. Calendar, and goes after Joyce, but Spike doesn't really hurt any of Buffy's friends.  When he goes after her, he goes after *her* (excluding the attempt at Willow in s4.  And she tries to console him, encourages him to try again, so I don't believe she was all that bothered by it), warrior to warrior and so forth.  That's all I was trying to say- killer, but not the people she knew and cared about.  And still, the non killing of demon Giles- that should count for something.  And saving the Scoobies at the end of s4, which was technically a plot hole, but on the other hand, could be construed as Spike actually giving a damn (about them, or Buffy's feelings at losing them, cause saving people from a death by being maimed by a demon so they wouldn't stake you makes no sense, cause they'd be dead, and thus, unable to do anything ever again... though one could argue that Buffy would come after him, but honestly, she'd be too devestated at the loss to react, and Spike would've been long gone by then anyway, and, they knew Spike was playing them, so going into the Initiative, knowing there was a possiblity that they wouldn't be coming out, really can't be blamed on Spike).

Okay, so here's a thought on the "Spike saving the Scoobies in the Initiative" kerfluffle. I agree with Scarlet that it makes no sense that Spike saved them so they wouldn't stake him. In fact, Spike never actually says that - Xander does (and we know *he's* not the brains of the outfit). Spike just asks, "Did it work?" letting them think that was his motivation.

It's possible he was really saving them out of the goodness of his heart - but here's another option. Maybe he saved them because he knew it was the only way he was getting out of the Initiative alive. They had to battle their way out. Now, Spike's a good fighter, and maybe he could've beaten any demon that attacked him, but he can't fight humans. Plus, all the doors were locked. Somehow, Buffy and the gang must have found an exit (since they all obviously survived), and Spike was probably smart enough to know they would, and tagged along. Why was he even going in that room to begin with? Last time he was there, Forrest was trying to rip his head off - if he was smart, he wouldn't be going near Adam. So, I think he was looking for the Scoobies, in order to get himself out. He just happened to get there in time to save their lives, which meant they didn't stake him when he tried to follow them out.

Oh, and Maggie, I agree with everything you said about Spike's behavior in seasons 4 and 5 - he definitely gave the Scoobies plenty of reasons not to trust him, and while the gratuitious face-punching on Buffy's part was uncalled for, pretty much everything else up until Intervention was warranted.

I don't think I have a pet peeve others haven't already mentioned but I'll list mine anyway. 

- The use of unnecessary violence against Spike by the Scoobies when he was defenceless. It was a hard sell to me that they were the good guys and we were supposed to be rooting for them.

- Willow got away with murder. In fact, my peeve generalises to all 'good' characters when it comes to the lack of accountability for their misdeeds.

- The Spike and Dawn relationship was never mended. Given S5 and S6 it seems a shame that that relationship was never fixed. 

- Dead Things and Buffy's struggle with having killed a human. I didn't buy it, not one bit. 

- Buffy's immediate reaction upon finding out that Anya had once again killed (S7) was that she was going to have to kill her. That was a huge WTF moment for me. I found myself empathising with Xander and THAT does NOT make me happy, lol. 

- Xander (since day one).

Here's a fanon pet peeve, which has probably been mentioned before, but I'll bring it up again, because it's been bothering me lately: the nickname thing.

Yes, Spike does have plenty of pet names and nicknames for people on the show - but, oddly, the ones that fanfic writers have latched on to are ones he *didn't* use! For example, calling Xander "whelp." I've heard it's a common British degrading-type nickname. None of the Brits I know ever used it, but the point is - neither did Spike. He's called Xander plenty of colorful things, but whelp was never one of them. I don't care if "the watcher, the witch, and the whelp" has great alliteration!

Also, calling Angel "peaches." Again, it's a generic pet name, which Spike used *once* - when he was very, very drunk and being sarcastic. It was *not* Spike's nickname for Angel. He would never use it in a conversation about Angel - he'd use something more specific, like "great pouf" or "Captain Forehead" - and if he did use it, whoever he was talking to would probably have NO idea who he meant, since it's as good as calling Angel "sweetiepie" or something equally as ridiculous.

Slightly less annoying to me is Glinda - and that's because I can't remember if he actually called Tara that on the show or not. At least, unlike the other two, it's a nickname that's unique to her, and not something generic that was adopted by fanon to mean a particular character.

While I agree that fanon sometimes overuses Spike's penchant for nicknames, I have to politely take issue with the assertion that Spike *Never* called Xander "Whelp".  He did.  Break out your season 5 dvd's.  I can't remember the name of the ep off hand, and as soon as I find it, I'll post it.

And, if I'm wrong, then I'll be sure to post an apology, but I'm sure Spike used that term in relation to Xander at least once in the run of the series.

FetchingMadScientist

"Whelp" is entirely a fanon term, but I can see how reading it so much can make one think it was canon. In season 5, the only things Spike calls Xander are Special Ed, lackbrain, "a glorified bricklayer," monkey boy, and his actual name. Never whelp.

-Shy

Sorry, FMS, but... nope. Coincidentally, I just watched season 5, and I would've noticed it.

Maybe you're confused because Glory calls Dawn "the whelp" during that fight in the hospital in Blood Ties? But Spike - not so much.

Okay, time for me to do as I promised.  I apologize. *Hangs head in shame*  Sorry, Eowyn315.

FetchingMadScientist

I have to say my biggest pet peeve is when the couples start having sex too soon if at all. I enjoy OST everyone enjoys it.. its of the good. I just read an epic that didnt have any sex in it, but still it managed to be the best fic ive surely read in years.

What is it spike calles xan when hes tried to kill himself with the stake in xans basement? when hes insulting them.

No need for shame, FMS - we can't *all* be big nerds who have every line of dialogue memorized. :) (Okay, that's not true, I'm just all over the transcript sites. Speaking of which...)

JoJo - in that scene, Spike calls Xander "a blighter I wouldn't have bothered to bite a few months ago."

*points to above and cringes* Joss REALLY should have had at least ONE English writer or consultant or SOMETHING on the show!!

While Spike didn't call Xander 'whelp' on the show, to call him a whelp is perfectly in character for Spike--it is a pretty common derogatory term for a young 'bit wet behind the ears' male.

I saw a recent discussion where someone didn't like Buffy using 'baby' or any other term of endearment for Spike because she never did on the show... Well, they didn't have that kind of relationship on the show... but if you are writing a story where they are happily together, I don't think 'pig' would cut it as a term of endearment! lol

I personally think to use ONLY terms that were used on the show is very limiting...especially considering how badly the writers mangled things on occasion! lol

I don't believe Spike ever actually called Tara "Glenda."  Come to think of it, I can't even hear him saying her *actual* name... Huh.

I believe Spike's called Xander "boy," before....oh, and Harris.

And, as for Buffy using endearments such as "baby," well, I don't see her using those terms ever, since I don't recall her ever using them with Angel or Riley, so it seems OoC to me.  I see her saying Spike or William- that is all

Oh, and Buffy feeling the need to kill Anya for killing all of the frat boys- well... technically, she was becoming a murderous menace to society- excuse me, *intentional* murderous menace to opted to be a demon twice (and did she ever lose her soul becoming a demon, cause I don't think she did, or if she did, she most certainly didn't get it back when her power center was broken, which is why I feel that Xander was the biggest hypocrit of them all when it came to his denouncement of soulless Spike), and she wasn't human.  I got her reasoning.

Scarlet... I think you're right about Tara. I actually was at a point in a fic where Spike had to refer to her, and I was like, "What the hell should he call her?" I thought about using Glinda, but ended up going with her actual name. 

Awesome resource for the nicknaming thing - Buffyverse Dialogue Database has a whole section of "AKAs," listing who called who what and in what episode. Some sections are incomplete, but still pretty nifty. Spike's listing is a mile long of course, but interestingly, there are NO entries for "Spike called Tara..."

And, Always, I wouldn't have a problem with "whelp" if it were used sparingly - but it seems to have become the "go-to nickname" for Xander. With only a couple exceptions, Spike didn't really have consistent nicknames for people - he seemed to make them up on the fly, which was what made them so hilarious sometimes. 

And to add my two cents to the killing Anya thing - I definitely got Buffy's reasoning, for the reason Scarlet mentioned. It makes even MORE sense when you consider Buffy's view of demons - black and white, (soulless) demon equals evil, evil equals needs to be killed. Really, Anya's lucky Buffy waited until she started slaughtering people before she decided to kill her.

 And, Always, I wouldn't have a problem with "whelp" if it were used sparingly

LOL... Eowyn, I have to agree. All things are best in moderation!! I hate it when people overdo anything.

funny how the most funny ones are from Spike- particularly about Angel ;)

Yeah, they are, Scarlet... I think my favorites are calling Angel "cursey-cursed" (which I don't even remember, but it cracked me up when I saw it on the list) and when he said Wesley was "grown in some sort of greenhouse for dandies." Oh, and Riley the "enormous hall monitor." Hee!

Spike did refer to Tara as "Glinda" at least once on the show. I don't remember specifically where, but I didn't start reading fanfic until after Tara was dead, so I know I didn't get it from there. He very rarely talked directly to her, so it wasn't used that way, but it was a reference.

CM

I have a fanfiction-y pet peeve (perhaps the biggest and most commonly aggravated one that I have) that I'm curious if anyone else shares.

I've read many good fics in which somewhere along the way, a character (usually Buffy) is placed in a situation where the intent of their assailaint or captors is made perfectly clear (an attack by an opportunistic would-be-felon upon a seemingly helpless victim in a graveyard, the Initiative boys wanting to get their frisky perv on with a helpless captive, etc.)  Now, these incidents are usually not really relevant to the story as a whole, minor events, and truly not even "warning" worthy. Buffy or Spike (or both) usually step in, beat up, and threaten, ("Never show your face around here again, blah blah blah") ultimately letting the offender(s) go free. This irks me, no matter how wonderful the story is.  Just because they got a beating and a scolding does not mean that they won't try again, except this time the victim probably won't have superpowers to defend themselves, and the assailant will have a load of rage at being thwarted previously to work out on someone.

In summary, it is a pet peeve of mine that so often the "would-be-maybe/probably rapists" get off so easily in many otherwise excellent works of fanfiction.

Does anyone feel similarly, or am I just over-thinking and particularly bloodthirsty?

~asr

Over Pretentious/ostentatious fic names when they have NOTHING WHAT SO EVER to do with the fic or its context,

ex. fic "Shatterd Reflections of A Whitherd Heart of Darkness" Summary: Buffy goes shopping for nylons, but desided on pink nailpolish.

or "It Lies In The Balance of What Is Light And Dark" Summary: Buffy chops carrots, boils them and then uses them for a facial.

Just Shoot Me!

Jo.

disclaimer: i apologice if anyones written a fic named like one of the above examples i simply rached deep inside my witherd mind and pulled some out.

Oh i have another one, im starting to feel guilty

When buffy/anyone but Anya (cose anyas wierd and vocal so its understandable shes been human for what half a decade) overly enjoys something just because its by/from her perticular love interest in the fic.

"the sex is the most uberfantastic shiznit wooha!mama baba ding ding, she had ever experienced in her entire existans Amen hallelujah thank you god!"

or " *insert whatever* tasted like the most incredible ambrosia of heavenly fluffy sprinkle sugar ever so help the god!, she had ever tasted in her life"

I just rewatched Becoming (first time since I have converted to being a Spuffy fan) and noticed that Spike uses the phrase 'whackiness ensues/will ensue.' I recall someone mentioning the use of that phrase in fic summaries as being his/her pet peeve. Are writers channeling Spike when they use it, I wonder?

To ClawofCat:

Sweetie...if you're talking about Strawberry Fields (and since you mentioned this to me, I believe you are), I need to remind you that chapter was entirely from Spike's point of view...not Buffy's. And I described Buffy as being rather sore the next morning.

- Holly

I hate fics that has Spike as Giles' son or brother on principle. I have read some stories that make it work, but I always think why do authors think that they should be related just because they're both English?

Yeah, the Cockney thing bothers me a bit, too... but I tend to assume they're Americans who can't tell the difference between Cockney and North London... and since I have trouble distinguishing most English accents myself, I can't fault them *too* much.

And the Spike as Giles' son thing probably comes from Tabula Rasa, where they assumed they were father and son... primarily because they were both English, lol.

I personally don't have a problem with Spike and Giles being made "family" in AH fics.  In fact, a lot of the time, their relationship came off as such anyway.

And Xander, I heard they were gonna off him several times, but it never came to pass.  Though he was annoying some of the time, he was still "big, funny Xander," and a part of the original three, so no real problem for me there.

"Riley Finn all american hero

How about, Riley Finn, thinly disguised misogynistic neo-nazi?  There was damn little about his character that was of the good.  And hopefully, he got brutally murdered by a demon on South America."

Yes, but we did have the scene with Riley & Adam as would be "Take Over the World" - that was the perfect place for Riley and Adam -

"Maggie, totally agree with your (unnumbered) number three about the "rave reviews" things.  I've read some fics, cause the review numbers were so high, and then after chapter one, it's like "Huh?""

In defense of the readers & reviewers - one of my PP goes back to the writers that have those  "please review request"  that make the reader feel like they have to make a comment or the poor writer is going to have a cycle of depression.  I know that it is very important to have your work acknowledge but I can help but ask "why is this person writing?"  The work is done because you love to write and love to work with these characters, not to get validation or have your work acknowledged. 

Ahh permanent WIP's...how I despise those. I think if a story has simply run out of steam, or you've lost inspiration, then a writer should put the story away and come back to it later. Maybe after awhile the author can look it over with fresh eyes and see something they missed.

I honestly hate it when authors simply throw their hands up and go "It's done!" when clearly the story isn't or give some other excuse for why the story isn't going to be finished. I have no problem with those authors whose real lives, families, or jobs have gotten in the way of writing fan fic. They aren't professional writers after all. Things happen. I just hate it when people who can finish their stories, don't.

I am still pissed beyond measure that one of my favorite authors declared a story done when it was not. (I don't care what that woman says, The Mummy was not finished!) Because of this, I made a promise to myself years ago that if I could help it, I would not do this to my readers. It may take me forever, but by God I will finish my stories!

And since I could really get going on this subject I'll step away before I possibly piss some really nice people off.

Hey, I don't mind. What fun is ranting if there's no one to highlight the faulty points so you can do it again?

And, yeah, I see where you're coming from with a lot of those issues.

I get the reason that Spike enjoyed the 'holding' because he already had the sex, and that Angel liked the sex because that was as far as they went and being that intimate with someone you love is really special, ( and I know its not any sex cause Angel and Darla have that conversation later in AtS- I remember. It was hilarious) but I still think that Angel should have been able to find perfect happiness with the woman he loved in a way other than sex. Its not exactly that the sex made him happy - but that it was the only thing he did with her that made him happy.

And now that I think about it, your point about Connor is completely valid. For a moment I forgot the drama that was going on at the time. And Angel doesn't have to find a point when there is nothing to not be happy about, because I don't think that would ever happen; he just has to reach the point when those things don't matter to him anymore, even if its just for a second.

I know that he doesn't remember the things he did when he was soulless every time that he received his soul again. The first, second, and third. And I still think its stupid. I'm not saying that Joss only made him forget in Becoming for it to be dramatic, but its stupid in the first place for him to not remember what he did while soulless. Its not like he was possessed- thats kind of my point. He was doing those things. Its his memories. Why would he not remember? The entire concept just doesn't make sense to me.

And I know that in the flashbacks Spike and Angel always seem to kinda-sorta get along and Spike totally does admire him whe he's first turned, but Spike is always talking about how he can't stand the guy and I don't think that was all from season 2. Yeah, maybe he doesn't wanna go all lets-kill-Angel or anything, but I don't understand why he welcomed him back into his home. It just doesn't seem very Spike-like behavoir to me.